Starfleet ranks

[Tilarium]

I was making a list of about 2 dozen admirals when I ran across something odd. The ranks and pips don't match.

Whats know is that they follow the naval ranks in that they go rear admiral, vice admiral, admiral, and the fleet admiral being the highest rank one can attain. Anyway, going on naval ranks (starting at commador which the federation stopped using sometime before TNG)

1 pip = Commandor
2 pip = Rear Admiral
3 pip = Vice Admiral
4 pip = Admiral
5 pip = Fleet Admiral

The majority of admirals seen in the TNG era are 2 pip admirals, making them rare admirals. Then there are 3 pip admirals which have included Holt, Kennelly, Nakanara, Necheyev, Paris, Ross, Shanthi, and Toddman. With the exceptions of Necheyev and Shanthi all of those are listed in the Encyclopedia as Admiral, which isn't odd, as it's like refering to a Lt. Commander as Commander. Necheyev is listed as Vice Admiral...and it is also stated that in 2370 she was promoted from Vice Admiral to Fleet Admiral this bypassing the rank of Admiral. As for Shanthi, she is listed in the Encyclopedia as a Fleet Admiral, yet she only has 3 pips and fleet admiral should be 5 pips.

Now the way I would explain it is that the background color on the pin is differant for Admiral and Fleet Admiral but that got shot down with Admiral T'Lara who is a 4 pip Admiral.

Anyone out there understand TNG senior ranks better then I do that can offer some advice on this or something?

Kyle.....always finds problems

[Doug Burke]

Doesn't really seem to have anything to do with Coda's System and Mechanics, so mopved to Star Trek Chat.

As to the quesiton asked, in the US Navy, it common to address any Admiral (from Rear Admiral, Lower Half, all the way up to a full Admiral) as "Admiral". So the forms of address used are not really a good indicator of actual rank.

In the case of someone being referred to as a Fleet Admiral, but only having three pips-in-th-box, it was most likely just a mistake. It's not like they were really meticulous about getting rank insgnia right. Just ask Tuvok or O'Brien...

[Evan van Eyk]

You can be a Fleet Admiral but still have the rank of Vice Admiral. Fleet Admiral is also a position, its the CO of a whole fleet. Necheyev is also Fleet Admiral, of the 16th fleet, like Admiral Shanti.

[qerlin]

Commodore is a rank out of fashion in Starfleet in TNG. Probably because it went out of fashion around the 60s.

Any admiral can be in charge of a fleet -- commodores were what are called fleet captains, captains commanding a fleet.

The rank of Fleet Admiral is reserved, I believe, or the CinC, Starfleet.

[Sea Tyger]

Fleet Admiral is a wartime-only rank in the US Navy, our last one died in the 60's I believe.

Commodores were also the same way until the Navy abolished the rank all together (replacing it with Rear Admiral, lower half) in the 80s.

Today, "commodore" refers to a captain (by rank) who commands a squadron of ships...this is probably Roddenberry's basis for the use of the term "fleet captain." That is, unless you believe the rumor that he was concerned that foreign naval traditions weren't being given proper exposure, and in the sense of fair play, decided to add the rank of kapitaen zur see to include our foreign brothers.

(Okay, so that was a little tongue-in-cheek.)

On the Fleet Admiral thing, a lower ranking admiral could be called a "fleet admiral," but not "Fleet Admiral." One denotes position, the other, rank. It's a somantic difference, but an important one.

[Tilarium]

Thanks folks, I think I understand it now!

Kyle

[Phantom]

Personally I keep the rank of Fleet Captain in my games, well ones that I have planned to run anyway. It is different, helps separate Trek from the real world. No offense to the American contingent, but I can't stand that "upper and lower" concept for Admirals. Just sounds silly to me.

[Cessna]

Originally posted by Phantom
No offense to the American contingent, but I can't stand that "upper and lower" concept for Admirals. Just sounds silly to me.

As opposed to, say, the British 18th century equivalent - under which mid-grade Admirals were designated "Of the Blue," "Of the White," and "Of the Red" to seperate them by seniority?

[Owen E Oulton]

"commodores were what are called fleet captains, captains commanding a fleet. "

Nope. A Commodore and a fleet Captrain were both seen in the same episode or TOS. In most navies, a Commodore is the lowest flag rank. While we haven't seen a Commodore in Trek since TOS, there's been no canon statement (i.e. on-screen) that the rank was abolished, so I continue to use it in my campaign.

Fleet Captain is more problematic. It is likely a Captain in charge of a fleet action, similar to some usages of the term Commodore. In my campaign, I use the insignia worn by Sloan when he was impersonating a Starfleet officer investigating possible misdeeds on DS9 - a standard four-pip Captain's insignia with a bar beneath it.

[Dukeroyal]

Originally posted by Phantom
Personally I keep the rank of Fleet Captain in my games, well ones that I have planned to run anyway. It is different, helps separate Trek from the real world. No offense to the American contingent, but I can't stand that "upper and lower" concept for Admirals. Just sounds silly to me.

I'm an American and the concept of Rear Admiral, Lower Half and Rear Admiral, Upper Half is EXTREMELY silly. I've talked to people in the U.S. Navy who want to change it back to Commodore, and I'm with them on the idea.

Whatever era of Trek I run games in Commodore will always be used. Not a Fleet Captain or Rear Admiral Upper or Lower Half to be found anywhere.

[Dukeroyal]

Originally posted by Tilarium
I was making a list of about 2 dozen admirals when I ran across something odd. The ranks and pips don't match.

Whats know is that they follow the naval ranks in that they go rear admiral, vice admiral, admiral, and the fleet admiral being the highest rank one can attain. Anyway, going on naval ranks (starting at commador which the federation stopped using sometime before TNG)

1 pip = Commandor
2 pip = Rear Admiral
3 pip = Vice Admiral
4 pip = Admiral
5 pip = Fleet Admiral

The majority of admirals seen in the TNG era are 2 pip admirals, making them rare admirals. Then there are 3 pip admirals which have included Holt, Kennelly, Nakanara, Necheyev, Paris, Ross, Shanthi, and Toddman. With the exceptions of Necheyev and Shanthi all of those are listed in the Encyclopedia as Admiral, which isn't odd, as it's like refering to a Lt. Commander as Commander. Necheyev is listed as Vice Admiral...and it is also stated that in 2370 she was promoted from Vice Admiral to Fleet Admiral this bypassing the rank of Admiral. As for Shanthi, she is listed in the Encyclopedia as a Fleet Admiral, yet she only has 3 pips and fleet admiral should be 5 pips.

Now the way I would explain it is that the background color on the pin is differant for Admiral and Fleet Admiral but that got shot down with Admiral T'Lara who is a 4 pip Admiral.

Anyone out there understand TNG senior ranks better then I do that can offer some advice on this or something?

Kyle.....always finds problems

If you use the current Royal Navy system Admiral of the Fleet is substituted for Fleet Admiral.

[Lord Kjeran]

Chello!

From another standpoint, Fleet Captain could be used for a captain who commands more than a ship, but less than a battle group. Say maybe the commander of a Frigate flotilla (3 small ships)? What about someone who works a staff position at a SB or Fleet HQ that requires a Commodore's security clearance, but not the command authority of a flag officer (and the person doesn't have the time in service to be a flag officer).

Or maybe a fleet cvaptrain has been to the Admiral's school, but isn't ready for promotion yet? Maybe a training grade sorta like Midshipman?

Maybe an admiral's aide or commander of the an admiral's flagship? He might need some extra rank to pull on other captain's in the squadron (thus a brevet rank)?

Falling back to SFB/PD and FASA Trek to test my theory against other waters (knowing that LUG Trek doesn't):

Prime Directive never really answers what a Fleet Captain is. They put it on the chart between Captain and Commodore. In the Federation S/B, they show the rank stripes. FC has the 4 stripes of a captain, but with a 5-pointed star between stripes 2 and 3. They also show a pip system; FC has the 4 pips of a captain, but with a star (5 points) btween pips 2 and 3.

On a side note, the Commodore only gets a single 5 pointed star instead of any pips. They do not show any rank stripes (or pips) for the other flag officers. Maybe they were having trouble figuring out the flag pips as well! lol

FASA Trek doesn't even have Fleet Captain on teh rank chart. Commodore is, though. No pip system (TOS, remember); 2 gold stripes for commodore with area between them solid silver. Only 1 admiral rank listed. 2 gold stripes with solid gold between them.

Edit: I forgot some stuff.

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Cessna


As opposed to, say, the British 18th century equivalent - under which mid-grade Admirals were designated "Of the Blue," "Of the White," and "Of the Red" to seperate them by seniority?

Ah, no. What I meant was the system used by the Commonwealth now (and by the American Navy)

Commodore
Rear Admiral
Vice Admiral
Admiral
Fleet Admiral

I use the term Fleet Captain as more a postion rather then rank, like Field Marshal or Sgt. Major. A postion granted the most senior man in grade.

[Cessna]

Originally posted by Phantom


Ah, no. What I meant was the system used by the Commonwealth now (and by the American Navy)

Oh, I understand - I was just pointing out the fact that many nations' navies have managed to come up with some fairly strange sounding rank titles...

(Although "Admiral of the Red" or other such titles sounds kinda cool, in an anachronistic sort of way...)

[Sea Tyger]

I use the term Fleet Captain as more a postion rather then rank, like Field Marshal or Sgt. Major. A postion granted the most senior man in grade.

Ah, but sergeant major is an actual rank in the US Army and Marine Corps (and in the Royal Army/Marines, IIRC), not just a position (however, yes, there are positions called the Sergeant Major of the Army and the Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps).