Another Alternate Universe

[First of Two]

I was reading a book about possible outcomes for WWII, when the following occurred to me...

Near the End of WWII, during the Allied Drive on Berlin, Patton asked his superiors to "Let me go to the Pacific"... by way of Moscow.

Patton believed that the battered, overextended and generally poor condition of the USSR's army, along with the still-continuing ethnic unrest in some of the Russian provinces, and many Russians' dislike for Stalinism, gave the West a great opportunity to rid the world of a second undemocratic political power, which he saw as just as dangerous as Hitler's Fascism.

His superiors, reluctant to immediately attack an ally, even one as distrusted as the USSR, disagreed.

But what if they hadn't? Some military historians believe that Patton actually could have made good on his idea, and essentially destroyed the power of the Soviet Union, especially if the next winter had been an easy one (was it? anybody know? I can't seem to find it out.)

How would this have changed the postwar era?

No Cold War, no Arms race... no Space Race?
Or would increased cooperation have gotten us into space faster?

Would the conquest of Soviet Asia have led us closer to a World Government? No Khan? Would the Vulcans have noticed us before "First Contact?"

And then... With a unified Earth that never had to suffer WWIII, would the Federation have formed decades earlier than it 'did?'

And won the Romulan War even more decisively? Or managed to avoid fighting it altogether? And then forged a lasting peace?
And had experience enough to avoid the 'disastrous first contact with the Klingons?'

And what if our dimension-hopping crew found a Federation History that seemed even BETTER than their own?



[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited 03-27-2001).]

[Sarge]

Hmmm... The crew finds a better alternate Federation, finds out it was because of Patton, goes back in time in their own universe, somehow gets Patton to do his thing, and the results are catastrophic. They have to go back again and try to restore the original timeline to prevent Patton from accidentally wiping out humanity. I might have to run something like this.

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LUGTrek isn't really dead. Not as long as we remember it.

[calguard66]

Who is to say that things wouldn't have turned out worse?

The idea is interesting, but it could go either way... and what if Patton had tried and LOST?

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"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain

[Rottwang]

It's possible that without any kind of great threats to deal with humans probably would deteriorated from within to become hollow shells of what they could be. Maybe, without any major enemies left to worry about, humans would not have had enough aggressive instincts to deal any real threat.

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"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of
their dreams."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

[Aedh Rua]

Actually, I worked out a version of that world in some detail, though not in any connection to Star Trek. The point of divergence I used was the Berlin Blockade turning hot, but I suspect Patton's Drive would have gone similarly.

Namely, at first things don't go well for the Americans, and the Russians push them back into Western Germany. Then, the Americans use nukes to destroy Soviet troop masses, and then push into E. Europe. Note that this might have been harder in '45, when the U.S. had fewer nukes, and none in the European Theater of Operations.

Anyway, the drive into E. Europe continues well into Russia, and then meets fanatic resistance, and bogs down again. So, the U.S. uses more nukes, this time on places like Moscow, which does succeed in killing Stalin and destroying the Soviet government.

This is a mistake, because now there is no one to surrender. So, the U.S. has to keep driving deeper and deeper into Russia, using more nukes everytime resistance gets stiff.

The war drags on in one form or another, given my 1948 starting date, until about 1957. Total casualties from the war, along with associated famine and disease, are in the 100 - 200 million range, mostly Russian and amounting to upwards of 80% of the population of the Soviet Union.

The war also aborts the post-war prosperity of the United States. Capital and labor that in our world went into the production of consumer goods and suburbs in this world financed the war, and got slaughtered killing Russian guerillas.

At the end, an exhausted U.S. is left in control of the entire ruined carcass of what was once the Soviet Union. China ends up Communist anyway, because the Americans were too busy fighting the Russians to intervene to save Chiang Kai-shek, pardon the old fashioned spelling.

By the late 1960s, the Americans have evacuated the former USSR, leaving it under the control of a variety of unstable post-Communist successor states.

Germany has re-united by the late 1950s, and is a more "traditional" Germany in that it pursues stronger and more independant policies in the East, though within a wider European framework. The lack of reliable American power in Europe actually stimulates European integration efforts, leading to a major united European power by the 1970s, centered on the Franco-German alliance.

Note, however, that this is a less prosperous Europe, and a less stable one. The lack of Marshall Plan aid has slowed recovery from WWII and WWIII alike, while the discredit of Communism as a venue for protest means a European neo-fascist resurgance by the 1960s. This neo-fascism is not Nazism, but is closer in spirit to more modern French 3rd Position movements, which are still not exactly soft & cuddly.

The upshot is that we are probably pretty lucky that Patton did not try his drive on Berlin and Moscow.......





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Slan agat!

[First of Two]

I should have mentioned, because I just realized that the former post sounded more than a little US-centric, that I'm neither a Patton fan nor an advocate of his idea.

However, various sources, from "What If?" mentioned in another thread and various other speculative writings on WWII, as well as my conversations with a few military personell (Including my uncle, who was formerly in US Army Intelligence) gave me the impression that the other Allied forces could have won against the Soviets, with sufficient effort and national will, without the deployment of nuclear weapons.

There was a map, published in London in around 1861-2 Civil War, that had the US (Actually, all of North America) split up into four different countries by 1866 if the South had won. This piqued my interest as well. I'm an alternity buff.

I'm also very interested in seeing what happens at the end of Harry Turtledove's Alternate CivilWar/2nd Civil War/World War I series, as I may try to postulate a future Earth changed by those events. (Right now, it looks as though the USA/Germany alliance might beat the French/English/Russian/Confederate one.


What I'm really interested in in this post is.. is there a way to create a Federation that might actually have turned out BETTER for everyone to the character's own 'canon' universe? Something which might not make them want to restore the original timeline? Because mostly, in Trek, alternate timelines are 'worse' worlds. I think a 'better' one might be a different challenge.

Ideas?

[Dan Stack]

In my H.G. Wells game, the characters visited an alternate Federation - the Planetary Confederation. The Confederacy won the Civil War. However, the USA and CSA shared a love of baseball (inspired by Ken Hite's "Dixie" in GURPS Alternate Earths.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
The 1999 World Series was perhaps the most momentous sporting event in the history of the North American continent. In addition to being regarded as one of the baseball events of all time, its historical context is unavoidable. It must be remembered at this time there were major power struggles in both the United States and Confederate States of America.

Within the United States, there was extensive debate on whether or not to open normal trade relations with the Confederacy. Some extremists in the United States still regarded the Confederacy as rebels to be reassimilated, while others viewed the Confederacy as a potentially valuable trade partner, while still others viewed the Confederacy as a gang of racists who reserved a high standard of living to just whites.

At the same time, the Confederacy was also wracked with internal conflict. The most extreme wanted nothing to do with the United States due to its having a black president, Alan Keyes. At the other end of the spectrum were those who wanted to override the Lee Amendment which made slavery a "state's option". These extremists rallied for a Bill of Rights, recognizing that all races and genders were equal under law. Despite some propaganda to the contrary, these extremists were not always agents of the United States.

It was in this context that the 1999 World Series, between the New York Yankees and the Richmond Travellers, took place. It was said in the 20th century that the two things the United States and Confederacy had in common were the Fourth of July and Baseball, with the champions of the two countries playing every October (except in those years in which a boycott took place). Security in both New York City and Richmond was tight as can be, with terrorist groups from both countries plotting to cause trouble, most notably the White Forresters' plot to detonate a bomb during the final game of the World Series at Yankee Stadium. (The primitive nuclear device actually would have worked but had a faulty detonator.)

The most notable event was at the end of the game. Though a normal baseball game went into nine innings, the final game lasted twelve long and brutal innings. In the end, Sammy Sousa of the New York Yankees hit a series-winning homerun against Richmond's relief pitcher John Rocker. John Rocker, and outspoken critic of the United States and blacks (including Sousa) in general, waited at the plate to congratulate Sousa. This was captured in Jessica Ty's Pulitizer Prize winning photograph and is generally regarded as going a long way in improving relations between the United States and Confederacy, including the Confederacy's Emancipation Proclamation of 2008 and the monumental peace treaty of 2011 between the United States and Confederacy, paving the way for the World Government of 2043 which made first contact with the Vulcans.


-From the Terran Encyclopedia, published by the University of Athens, 2368 Edition
</font>

In the game, an Alternate Romulan Star Empire tried to make the bomb actually go off, preventing a world government to be waiting for the Vulcans in 2043. Earth was more peaceful in this universe, but oddly enough, the Confederation was not as integrated as the UFP - the various members of the Confederation still had their own militiaries, there were no mixed-species crews, etc. My theory was that Earth turned out "better" in the regard it avoided the horrors of the 21st century, but in the mainline universe those horrors served as the "forge for humanity".

[Evan van Eyk]

Actually I do not thing the U.S. would have managed it. There were several person who tried to conquer Russia, well it was no good for them - everytime they were defeated, e.g. Napoleon, Hitler. the country is far to large and normally the defenders can win out of the bravery of the desperation ( its a German expression, so I hope you understand it ). they would have fought to defend their country, which they just had regained from Hitler. The U.S. had severely problems in the Pacific War and were nearly defeatd so they had lost much resoures. France had not existed for the past years and had to rebuilt. GB had suffered alot from the Battle of Brittain and as it had been the only Western stronghold in Europe. They were not ready for another war or an extension. Additionally it would have been against the Atlantic Charta which Churchilld had set up with Roosevelt and I do not think Churchilld would have broken it. As a consequence the U.S. would have to fight the Russians alone, which they actually wanted as allies in the Pacific War ( was part of a treaty, that russia had to declare war on Japan within six months after defeat of Germany ).