CODA....Dune?

[Chris Landmark]

Two points to get out of the way up front:

1) I am not inquiring whether or not Decipher or anyone else is producing a Coda version of the ICON Dune game. Unless something has changed recently, I already know the answer is "No." I'm pretty convinced that waiting for any sort of Dune RPG is a lost cause.

2) I'm aware that this is a Star Trek Roleplaying forum and this thread has nothing to do with Star Trek, but as there is no general forum devoted to the Coda system and mechanics I decided to throw it in here. The moderators can toss it into another forum, leave it alone, or create another forum for it as they see fit; I'm just trying to reach those people interested in the Coda system.

Now, on to what this thread is actually about. Having personally been a long time fan of Dune, I gleefully awaited Last Unicorn's RPG, and was saddened when the company and the game disappeared into the black pit that is Wizards of the Coast. Now, Decipher has brought us the Coda system which I have decided I like better than ICON in several respects. So naturally I cast my eye at my copy of Dune, Chronicles of the Imperium and thought to myself, "Well, if Star Trek translated over to Coda so nicely, why not this?"

Hence, I am looking at converting my ICON Dune over to Coda, and all that would entail: setting up professions, converting skills, filtering out professional ablilites, adjusting edges and flaws, etc. This is something which will progress slowly in my free time until I come to a satisfactory conclusion, but I was wondering whether there were other people out there who share my interest enough to contribute to this project. If so, it would certainly speed up the conversion process.

I would also appreciate any insight that people involved in developing either the ICON Dune game and/or the Coda games (and I know some of you are around here) feel like sharing. This includes warnings about the legality of putting together such a set of rules and actually distributing it on the web, since Decipher hasn't open-sourced the Coda system like Wizards did with d20.

So if there is anyone out there with enough desire to actually put time and effort into Coda-fying Dune (and has access to the old ICON Dune book as well as the new Coda stuff), please let me know. If there is enough interest, perhaps Don will even deign to grant us a Special Project forum for further discussion...

-Chris (Mentats are cool) Landmark

[Phantom]

Well, not sure what I can do do to help, but I would be interested in such a project. I have the LUG Dune RPG and will, hopefully, be picking up the new Trek in 2 weeks. Was going to do it this week, but the paycheque had other ideas.

Let me know where you want to start. From what I have been able to gather about the CODA system, the Melee rules will need a face lift.

[Chris Landmark]

Originally posted by Phantom
Let me know where you want to start. From what I have been able to gather about the CODA system, the Melee rules will need a face lift.

I'm actually starting with the Skills, as they are pretty straighforward and would require the least ammount of adjustment. After that, I'd probably move on to professions, which will be a bit more involved...

As for the combat rules, I kind of liked the action points and action/reaction stuff. Yes, it was a bit complicated, but it allowed for flexible and dynamic fights once you got the hang of it. My players always liked it, even when they complained about some of the other aspects of ICON. I'd like to retain as much of that as possible. Yes, this will require some heavy modifications to the Coda combat rules. Of course, if someone wants a simpler system, they can always revert to the standard Coda version.

-Chris Landmark

[Phantom]

My thoughts were to retain the LUG Dune combat system altogether, or as close as possible.

[Lapdog2]

Originally posted by Chris Landmark
So if there is anyone out there with enough desire to actually put time and effort into Coda-fying Dune (and has access to the old ICON Dune book as well as the new Coda stuff), please let me know. If there is enough interest, perhaps Don will even deign to grant us a Special Project forum for further discussion...

-Chris (Mentats are cool) Landmark

I'd considered doing the same thing many moons ago.... but free time isn't something I've had in abundance recently.
For the record I have both IconDune and the CodaTrek Player's Book. And, if convenient, I also manage a Yahoo Group (formerly a Yahoo Club) long devoted to Dune:Chronicles of the Imperium. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Duneroleplayinggame/
As you can imagine there's been little to no activity in the Group over the past year... but there's a few attempted conversions uploaded (rough drafts of both a D20 and Silhouette conversion). Anyway, you're certainly welcome to use any resources there if you like. Otherwise, I wouldn't mind lending a hand in any other degree if needed.

Lapdog

[Lapdog2]

Originally posted by Phantom
My thoughts were to retain the LUG Dune combat system altogether, or as close as possible.

I'd also recommend this.
One of the best features of IconDune was its detailed combat system. Definitely held a lot of Dune flavor and illustrated the advantages skilled duelists (and Bene Gesserit adepts) had in hand-to-hand combat.

[Chris Landmark]

Well, I'm glad to see a couple people interested at least. I'll check out that Yahoo group, Lapdog2.

I've gone over the skill lists in both games and done a bit of thinking. In the hopes of getting some feedback and perhaps provoking more people to join in, I'm going to post my tentative skill conversion list (I've left out the Prescience skills for now). Give it a look over and then give it your input. Skills will be listed in the following format:

ICON -> Coda
Thoughts and comments

First off, there are quite a few skills which convert over with little trouble:

Armament -> Repair
The skill deals almost completely with the repair and modification of offensive and defensive equipemnt, so Repair seems most appropriate.

Athletics -> Athletics
I still am not sure whether to separate Gymnastics out as a skill on its own (as Coda Trek does) or to leave it as part of this skill.

Dodge -> Quickness reaction

Concealment -> Conceal

Impersonation -> Impersonate

Military Operations -> Tactics

Performance -> Entertain skill group

Stealth -> Stealth

Survival -> Survival

Transport -> Transport
System Operations isn’t really thematic for Dune, but some sort of skill is needed for piloting vehicles. Thus Transport needs to be retained.

Computation -> Projection Mentat Professional Ability
Name change due to the fact that it strikes me as strange that in ICON Projection dealt with currently existing facts while Computation dealt with predicting the future. I think they work better the other way around.

Culture -> Knowledge: Culture

Economics -> Science: Economics
Science skill group has different breakdown with narrower definitions of skills

History -> Knowledge: History

Language -> Language skill group

Law -> Knowledge: Law

Medical Arts -> Medical Arts
Just the same as Coda Trek’s Medicine, but I like the atmosphere created by this name...

Mentat Trance -> Mentat Trance
Works essentially the same as in ICON Dune.

Pharmacy -> Science: Chemistry
Science skill group has different breakdown with narrower definitions of skills. Pharmacy becomes a specialty of Chemistry.

Politics -> Knowledge: Politics

Projection -> Computation Mentat Professional Ability
Name change due to the fact that it strikes me as strange that in ICON Projection dealt with currently existing facts while Computation dealt with predicting the future. I think they work better the other way around.

Sciences -> Science skill group
Science skill group has different breakdown with narrower definitions of skills. Skills: Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Economics

Theology -> Knowledge: Theology
Basically the same as Coda Trek’s Knowledge: Religion

Underworld -> Enterprise: Underworld
Basically the same as Coda Trek’s Enterprise: Streetwise

World Knowledge -> Knowledge: Worlds
Coda Trek’s Knowledge: Specific World with a better name.

Administration -> Enterprise: Administration

Command -> Professional Ability
The Starship Command Officer tier 3 professional ability “Command” works along essentially the same lines.

Diplomacy -> Negotiate

Interrogation -> Inquire

Leadership -> Persuade

Mercantilism -> Enterprise: Mercantilism
Coda Trek’s Enterprise: Business skill, but I like this name better for the Dune setting.

Propaganda -> Persuade
Becomes one of the specialties of Persuade

Psychology -> Medical Arts
Becomes one of the specialties of Medical Arts

Racketeering -> Influence
Racketeering contributes some if its specialties (e.g. Blackmail, Bribe) to Influence

Statecraft -> Influence
Statecraft contributes some of its specialties (e.g. Pressure, Intrigue) to Influence

Subornation -> Indoctrinate
Becomes one of the specialties of Indoctrinate

Subterfuge -> Persuade
Becomes one of the specialties of Persuade

Voice -> Adept Professional Ability

Artistry -> Craft skill group

Bargaining -> Negotiate

BG Way -> BG Way
The definition of this skill has been somewhat narrowed for Coda, as some factors became adept professional abilities.

Charm -> Influence

Equipment -> Equipment
Coda Trek dropped the Personal Equipment skill found in ICON Trek. The closest thing in Coda Trek now would be System Operation, but that isn’t very thematic for Dune. I think some sort skill like this is still necessary, however. The specialties will have to be better defined than in ICON Dune, however.

First Aid -> First Aid

Gaming -> Gaming

Observation -> Observe

Persuasion -> Persuade

Repair -> Repair
The Coda Trek definition is stricter than the ICON version: making modifications falls under Engineering. Because Engineering contributes little to the theme of Dune, I’m retaining the broader definition of Repair.

Sabotage -> Sabotage
The Coda Trek Demolitions skill is confined pretty exclusively to explosives, but ICON Dune’s Sabotage skill is much broader and covers things done with a little more finesse than just blowing stuff up. This broader skill may be the way to go.

Truthtrance -> Reverened Mother Professional Ability

The combat skill groups are also pretty straightforward. The real question comes in the classification of skills within those groups. A lot will probably hinge on how the combat rules translate:

Armed Combat -> Armed Combat skill group
Break specialties into different skills: Personal, Dueling, Concealed, Esoteric? Allow access to different maneuvers as in ICON Dune.

Ranged Combat -> Ranged Combat skill group
Skills: Simple, Projectile, Las-weapons?

Unarmed Combat -> Unarmed Combat skill group
Skills: Brawling, Martial Training. Allow access to different maneuvers as in ICON Dune.

Many of the skills exclusive to the different roles might do better as professional abilities, though a few fall pretty well into regular skills and were listed above:

Assassination -> Professional Ability?
This breaks down into a number of skills (like Equipment, Conceal, Construct) and professional abilities that might best be covered by the Assassin elite profession.

Infiltration -> Professional Ability?
The Spy professional ability of Infiltration (p. 168) will probably be sufficient

Espionage -> Espionage? Professional Ability?
This encompasses a wide range of things, like Forgery, Inquire, and Administration. I’m not sure what sort of breakdown this should have. It may break down into a number of the Spy professional abilities, maybe it will have to be retained as a skill.

Security -> Investigate?
This is another very broad skill, which involves knowledge of laws and enforcement procedures (Knowledge: Law), surveillance (Observe), and disabling security equipment (Sabotage). I'm not sure where to break it down

Ritualism -> Knowledge: Theology? Professional Ability?
This is probably best handled as a Professional Ability, possibly based on Theology. (How does "Gain a affinity bonus to Influence equal to half Knowledge: Theology level, rounded up" sound?) But should it go with the Adept or Reverened Mother profession?

The following skills from Coda Trek don't have an equivalent in the ICON Dune game, but should be included:

Appraise, Sleight of Hand

The following skills and skill groups from Coda Trek should not appear in Coda Dune (unless you can make a good argument for me):

Computer Use, Engineering skill group, Systems Operation
All these are highly unthematic for Dune and should definitely not be included

Demolitions
[i]Rather narrowly defined as blowing things up. The wider skill of Sabotage subsumes this skill.[i]

The following Coda Trek skills I'm unsure of. They could be included in Coda Dune, but should they? What do you think?

Sport
We have no evidence of any sports in Dune that fall under the definition of this skill, so it could be excluded without much trouble.

Gymnastics
I'm not sure whether or not this should be a separate skill from Athletics.

Construct
No parallel exists in ICON Dune. Could be included, but not really importaint to theme. It might be easier to fold this into the Repair skill.

Forgery
This is more of a question of whether the old ICON Dune skill of Espionage should be retained or not. If not, Forgery is needed as a separate skill.

OK, anyone else have oppinions?

-Chris Landmark

Edit 7-4-02: updated skills list to reflect my current thoughts.

[Phantom]

I just scan read what you have so far, I'll take a more detailed look later, I like what you have so far.

As to the number of interested parties, its strange once the Dune section was closed off all interest on the subject came to a screetching halt.

[Lapdog2]

"As to the number of interested parties, its strange once the Dune section was closed off all interest on the subject came to a screetching halt.

Disappointment will do that to people, I guess.
The Yahoo Group, I commented on earlier, saw a brief surge as people debated how to best present a D20 Dune conversion. But after time that died off...

[Chris Landmark]

All right, here's my first attempt at creating a Coda Dune profession: the Bene Gesserit Adept. Give it a look over, make comments, give feedback. Especially look over the Professional Abilities, because I've basically taken the Adept-specific skills and edges from ICON and tried to translate them into Coda professional abilities. I'm pretty tentative about them right now; they may require further breakdown, or toning down, or changing of prerequisites, so I'd most appreciate insightful comments and helpful suggestions there; it will also assist me when I try to come up with professional abilities for Mentats, Nobles, and Suk doctors later (as I probably can't steal all these from Coda Trek...)

Note that there are fewer professional skills and professional abilities than the Coda Trek professions have, since I'm currently favoring a two-tiered character creation system with a Profession and a House Service package that would sort of combine after the manner of Starship Officer and the Starship Officer Elite Professions, to allow a bit more flexibility in designing the characters. I'm giving my Dune professions approximately 8 professional skills and 5 professional abilities (distributed 2/2/1), and I'm planning the House Service packages to contain 4-5 professional skills and 4 professional abilities (distributed 2/1/1 or 2/2) when I get around to creating them.

BG Adept
The Bene Gesserit-trained adept exists to serve. As a child, something brought you to the attention of the Sisterhood. They took you in and educated you in language, culture, history, and politics as well as their secret ways, and then sold you into the service of a noble House. While prized for your expertise and “wierding ways”, you are also feared. The Sisterhood’s plots and goals span across the millennia and are inscrutable to all outside their secretive order, so your new masters never know whose interests you are truly serving.

BG Adepts in Dune: Jessica Atreides, Lady Margot Fenring, Gaius Helen Mohaim.

House Service: As wife or concubine of a nobleman, the adept may be entrusted with the smooth running of his household, her powers of observation and administration ensuring that nothing escapes her notice. She also serves the Sisterhood’s secret breeding program by procuring the seed of and guarding an important genetic lineage. With her extensive training in politics and manipulation, she makes an excellent addition to a diplomatic staff or a persuasive mouthpiece in trade and governmental affairs. Finally, her deadly physical skills and uncanny senses make her a formidable security asset. In all these ways, she helps enhance the importance of the Bene Gesserit to the smooth operation of the Imperium.

Background: Women come to the Sisterhood in many ways. Noble houses throughout the Imperium will send their daughters to the Bene Gesserit for “finishing school”, increasing their desirability in political marriages. Others are born into the Sisterhood, the product of their secret breeding program. A few may have an interesting “wild card” genetic potential which brought them to the attention of the Sisterhood, and be snatched up from any walk of life. All have been trained from youth in the Sisterhood’s methods of manipulation and observation.

Role: An adept, as confidant or delegated authority, might assist with or run outright the governance of the House fief, where she would be responsible for implementing matters of policy. She might assist a Mentat or CHOAM representative in the arrangement of trade treaties. Her powers of observation might be called upon by a Spymaster or security commander to rout out agents of an enemy House hidden within the household staff, or her political acumen be consulted by a Master of Assassins trying to spark a covert war between two rival Houses.

Game Information

Attributes: Despite their formidable physical skills and specialized education, the true trade of the Bene Gesserit is politics. Presence, which aides them in influencing and manipulating others, is their favored attribute. Vitality and Agility both reflect the rigorous physical training and ideal genetic qualities of the adept, while a high Perception helps enhance her reputation for preternatural awareness. All three are suitable candidates for the adept’s second favored attribute.

Table ?.?: BG Adept Skills
The BG adept’s professional skills, and the key attribute for each, are as follows:

Athletics(Str)
BG Way(Int)
Influence(Prs)
Knowledge*(Int)
Language*(Int)
Observe(Per)
Persuade(Prs)
Unarmed Combat*(Agl)
*This entry denotes a skill group (see Chapter ?: Skills for details). Chose one skill from within the group each time this entry is selected.

Reaction: Because they deal so much with deception and the hidden motivations of humanity, Savvy is the favored reaction of the BG adept.

Professional Abilities
The following are characteristic of being a Bene Gesserit adept. A player character automatically gains one Tier 1 professional ability when created. Additional abilities can be chosen freely through advancement (see pgs. 152-153, STRPG Player’s Guide), provided the character meets the ability prerequisites.

Tier 1 Professional Abilities

Minutia: The adept is trained in recognizing the most minute physical details in their environment. The adept gains an affinity bonus equal to half her BG Way skill level (rounding up) on any Observe or Investigate (Inspect) test.

Specialized Training: Many adepts are given specialized instruction in skills which will be useful to the house they will serve. The adept may acquire and develop one non-professional skill as if it were a professional skill. This ability may be upgraded up to three times, choosing a new skill each time.

Tier 2 Professional Abilities

Prana-Bindu Conditioning: Due to her preternatural command of her own nerves and muscles, the adept doubles the attribute modifiers granted by Strength Agility, and Vitality to any physical tests performed. She also gains access to the Wierding Combat maneuvers (p. ???) Prerequisite: Minutia.

Voice: The adept gains the new specialty of Influence (Voice). The adept may make an Influence (Voice) test to compel an action. The Voice may also be used to implant a suggestion in a manner equivalent to the Indoctrinate skill (see p. ???). A successful BG Way test to register the behavioral tendencies of the subject will grant bonus to Influence (Voice) based on the degree of success: +1 for a complete success, +2 for a superior success, and +3 for an extraordinary success. Prerequisite: BG Way 3+.

Tier 3 Professional Abilities

Bindu Suspension: With a successful BG Way test (TN 15, physical modifiers apply), the adept may enter a suspended metabolic state, allowing her to survive ten times longer than a normal human on a like amount of food, water, or oxygen. This state also slows the progress of poisons or drugs through the blood to one fifth their normal rate. Prerequisite: Prana-Bindu Conditioning.

Edit 7-4-02: Removed Truthsayer professional ability, added Specialized Training professional ability, tweaked and moved around the other professional abilities

[mattcolville]

I think Truthsayer should be a Elite Profession. Truthtrance would be one of the abilities they got.

[DaiMonMox]

Hi!

I know that I will be one of the many to ask this question, but a very good friend of mine is starting a DUNE campaign this summer. In lack of the LUG Dune he is trying to convert the White Wolf d10 system. Nevertheless I was wondering if there is any chance to get one of the few LUG Dune core books. Maybe you can help (seeing that you really are into it).

Many thanx!

[Chris Landmark]

mattcolville: I think Truthsayer would be way too narrow a role for a full elite profession. However, I wouldn't have much problem with moving the Truthsayer ability into a Reverened Mother elite profession (which would have Other Memory and Metabolize Poison as professional abilities as well, now I just need two more...). Still, that means I need to come up with a replacement Tier 3 Professional Ability for the Adept. Got any suggestions for that? Anyone?

DaiMonMox: There is only one LUG Dune book, it is very hard to find. You're most likely to find it on Ebay, and you had better be ready to pay through the nose for it. It would certainly be nice if we could get permission to distribute it electronically, but that would likely require permission from both Wizards of the Coast and Herbert Limited Partnership. I haven't got the energy to attempt that. I'm too busy converting the game to the Coda system.

-Chris Landmark

[Chris Landmark]

Well, despite the lack of much traffic on this thread, my Coda-fying of Dune continues (albeit slowly). I've updated my skill conversion list and Bene Gesserit Adept profession (see above), so those interested in my little project please look them over and give your suggestions.

And, just so you'll see I haven't been dwelling solely on those items, here's some new stuff: the first draft of a Mentat profession! Comments and suggestions on this one are also welcome.

-Chris Landmark

Mentat
When the Butlerian Jihad destroyed the thinking machines and the Butlerian Proscriptions forbade the construction of “a machine in the likeness of a human mind”, it crippled humanity’s ability to process vast amounts of data. The Mentat Schools were founded to fill that void. Using advanced techniques, they train human minds to equal and exceed the capabilities of the ancient thinking machines. Mentats are capable of astounding feats of logic, computation, and memory recall, factoring human equations and projecting future events from myriad bits of information. In high demand among the great Houses of the Imperium, they keep the affairs of their employers working smoothly.

Mentats in Dune: Thufir Hawat, Piter de Vries.

House Service: The duty of a mentat is to amass and store information, and use that information to uncover hidden facts and project future events. Nearly all areas of house service can find a use for the mentat’s powers. With their broad mental training they make excellent advisors on all manner of subjects, and are easily adaptable to many roles, from espionage and security, to trade, to military tactics, to politics and administration.

Background: Mentats must begin their training at a very early age. Young children who show the proper mental agility and capacity follow a strict regimen of intellectual development and memory enhancement to turn them into the human computers they will become.

Role: With their extraordinary capacity to store and process information, Mentats are invaluable assistants in all sorts of administrative and trade matters. Few can match them as advisors and experts. They also often find employment in gathering and interpreting intelligence information, working with the house Spymasters, Masters of Assassins, and Security Commanders to guard against infiltration and hostile actions by rival houses. The Mentat will interact with all sorts of individuals, from diplomats to spies, in order to gain the information necessary to perform his projections.

Game Information

Attributes: Because of the vast mental requirements of being a mentat, Intellect is essential as a favored attribute. None of the mentat’s remarkable abilities would be possible without it. Perception helps the mentat gather the data necessary for computation and ensures that no useful fact goes overlooked. Vitality helps grant the mentat the stamina to perform long hours of intense mental exercise. Either of these would be a suitable second favored attribute.

Table ?.?: Mentat Skills
The mentat’s professional skills, and the key attribute for each, are as follows:

Administration(Int)
Espionage?(Int)
Inquire(Prs)
Investigate(Per)
Knowledge*(Int)
Mentat Trance(Int)
Observe(Pre)
Persuade(Pre)

*This entry denotes a skill group (see Chapter ?: Skills for details). Chose one skill from within the group each time this entry is selected.

Reaction: Stamina is the mentat’s favored attribute. They often must work long hours, performing exhaustive mental calculations in order to achieve accurate results, and Stamina helps their bodies to keep up with the demands.

Professional Abilities
The following are characteristic of being a mentat. A player character automatically gains one Tier 1 professional ability when created. Additional abilities can be chosen freely through advancement (see pgs. 152-153, STRPG Player’s Guide), provided the character meets the ability prerequisites.

Tier 1 Professional Abilities

Machine Logic: The mentat is capable of following more than one train of thought at a time. The mentat can perform two Intellect based skill tests at the same time (assuming they are not physically prohibitive, like trying to speak in two languages at once), and suffers no penalties for doing so.

Mentat Awareness: Mentats seem to instinctively know when something deserves their attention. Select one skill from Inquire, Investigate, or Observe. When making a test in the chosen skill, the mentat rolls an extra die (3d6) but keeps the two highest rolls. The rule for double sixes still applies (see p. 102, STRPG Player’s Guide). This ability may be upgraded twice, selecting a different listed skill each time.

Tier 2 Professional Abilities

Computation: Based on data already collected, the mentat can interpolate the likely current state of unknown factors. This can reveal hidden facts, or underlying plot lines. In order to compute the answer to a question, the mentat makes a Mentat Trance test with a difficulty based on the obscurity of the information desired, modified by the amount of relevant accumulated data which the mentat has committed to memory. Failure indicates that there is not yet sufficient information to draw a conclusion. Only a Disastrous Failure would produce in false results. Prerequisite: Mentat Awareness.

Projection: By evaluating trends and motivations, the mentat can predict future behaviors and likely outcomes of intended courses of action. In order to do so, a Mentat Trance test is required. The difficulty is based on how far into the future the information to be predicted lies: TN 5 for things appearing later in the same scene, TN 10 for things appearing in a later scene in the same act, TN 15 for things appearing in a later act, TN 20 for things appearing in a later episode, TN 25 for campaign-spanning projections (assuming the three-act model is used). Prerequisite: Mentat Awareness.

Tier 3 Professional Abilities

Peerless Intellect: When spending Courage to improve professional skill rolls, the mentat gains a bonus +5 instead of the normal +3. Prerequisite: Machine Logic and Mentat Trance 3+.

[rook111]

Just found this thread. I like what I have seen so far. I ran a short Dune campaign last year with the LUG rules and it rocked but we stopped whena couple of key players had to move and the group wanted to move on to something else (D&D3E). I recently got the directors cut of the Dune miniseris and that made me pull out my LUG book, which made me statr thinking of the CODA system and D20. I like d 20 and I like some of Coda (character creation and advancment are great not so keen on task resolution and combat) So I combined the two for a Supers D20 game and a Judge Dredd game. Now I'm thinking of doing the same with Dune. The conversions you are doing would really make this easy for me. I'm willing to be a spring board for your ideas if you need any help.