What use are Elite Professions anyway?

[Lee T]

Originally posted by Sea Tyger
I suppose this was expected. The d20 bashers just can't help themselves, can they?

I agree with you on most point, except that branding me "d20 Basher" just because I've said that CODA is more flexible than the d20 system is imo a bit exagerated.

[Calcoran]

Ah ... some answers at last . So ... solutions proposed thus far are:

• Forbid taking a second base profession. Well, if there were some EPs to cover each one of the base professions, that'd be fine by me. Since there aren't, this is just too restrictive for me.
• Allow taking a second base profession. This would have to cost more picks than for an EP ... or be more restrictive, but why not? For instance, as an additional rule, there could be: "You can not have 2 base professions at the same time. If you undertake a new base profession, you have to give up the current one."
• Create restricted versions of the base professions as EPs (by leaving out a few skills and abilities).
• Maybe combine both above solutions.
• A few other suggestions that were not very realistic nor helpful ... the fact is, despite what it may seem, I like CODA. It's just that the designers felt the need to implement some limitations in an otherwise very flexible system for reasons that I simply don't get. IMO, it goes against the game realism and playability ... and against its compatibility with what I saw on screen. All this, IMBNMSHO*, of course, YMMV.

*IMBNMSHO = In My By No Means So Humble Opinion

[C5]

I'd go with the "one profession at a time" rule. It makes sense.

A player wanting to switch profession during the game could have a transition period (a certain number of advancements, for instance), during wich his professional skills of the first profession would gradually be replaced by the second (for instance, two skills on the first advancement, then half of them, then all of them minus two for a 3-advancements transition time).
Depending on the GM's decision, the professional abilities of the first profession could either be kept or gradually replaced by their equivalent of the second one.

I think letting the players change professions is necessary to be true to the Trek universe (otherwise, how would you reflect Spock's or Kira's career, to take only those examples); however, by letting the players only have one profession at a time, you remain true to CODA and remain rather realistic (if I suddenly change my profession, my former profession's skills won't be upgraded as easily as before, but I'll keep the knowledge I gained).

As for why elite professions, well, as Lee T said, professional abilities are a good reason

[Dan Gurden]

Originally posted by Calcoran

• Forbid taking a second base profession. Well, if there were some EPs to cover each one of the base professions, that'd be fine by me. Since there aren't, this is just too restrictive for me.
• Allow taking a second base profession. This would have to cost more picks than for an EP ... or be more restrictive, but why not? For instance, as an additional rule, there could be: "You can not have 2 base professions at the same time. If you undertake a new base profession, you have to give up the current one."
• Create restricted versions of the base professions as EPs (by leaving out a few skills and abilities).

OK, those thre are the key points. And of those, its the second two that should be answered first;

[list]
[2] Buying a second base proffession at more picks than an Elite Profession.
- That is possible, but not the initial focus of the game. One thing that Don and Doug have often said is that there is no need for a player to save their picks for later purchases as there were no expenditures costing more that 5 picks... So this would alter that dynamic completely. If you want to, its your perogative. Otherwise, other options need be sought...
[3]Sawn off Professions as an Elite Profession
- This I think could be your solution. Costing 5 picks and offering the cut down list of available skills. But it wouldn't be my option, as you could hardly define it as an 'Elite' profession.[list]

So as far as I can see you have hit upon your solution right there. For myself, the total availability of any skills, and edges to purchase other professional abilities as required.

IMO, it was your statement that you want to limit the use of the Innovative Edge that is causing your Hamstring here. After all, just because the player was a soldier, and has become a mystic, doesn't mean that the playre cannot buy the Mystics skills and Innovative Edge for some professional ability... Its just that the player is paying more for them... That is the way that I would (and intend to) run it.

If cost is your problem, change them.

If the rules are your problem, write new ones.

If the packages you want are not there yet, write new ones.

Trust me, the Game Gestapo will not kick down yourdoor just for being creative.

[deltabob]

I have to agree with Dan here. Ultimately, rules discussions for an RPG boil down to 'do what works with your group.' While the debating the semantics of the PG is interesting, if you want to allow the switching of basic professions, go ahead. The majority of RPG books I have read (spanning many systems) all pretty much say the same thing in the introduction: 'If the rules don't work for you, change them.'
I am going to allow basic profession switching in my game when it is appropriate for the character.

[Calcoran]

You are of course right, deltabob, but the point of bringing it up here on the boards is not just to say "I don't like this in the rules" to the world at large .
By bringing it up on the boards, you can not only create a house rule, but also get some feedback on how others think this house rule could fare. How balanced it is, how realistic it would be, and so on. And if, as was my case here, you have no idea what to start with for a house rule you want to create, you can come up here, ask if others experience the same problem you are facing, and ask if anyone has ideas on how to handle it.

In the end, I am of course going to find a way to allow switching to a base profession. I just wanted to see if I was the only one seeing this as a problem (well, I know I am not the only one: two of my players do also, one Cardassian rogue -> diplomat, and one Bajoran vedek(mystic I suppose) -> rogue) ... and if some here had ideas on what to do to fix it.

[Lee T]

I would go with the "one base profession at a time" and would ask the player to take a "bridge" elite profession
eg:

Flight control
FLight control+Smuggler
Smuggler+Merchant

or something like that.

[Lockhart]

Well, I honestly don't see this as a big problem. Unless your method for switching to a base profession is just as difficult as taking innovative multiple times and bulking up the skills they want that they "can't have" that would be a problem for my game. This is not a slung stone, but you have a fairly obvious choice for that Cardassian. He picks Rogue or Diplomat (based on what he really wants to do during the game) and he gets the Ambassador elite profession. He does it fair and square and the person who just wanted to be a Ferengi merchant doesn't feel like he's gettng an uneven break.

Your Bajoran vedic really only has a problem if he wants to play a mystic and be a criminal on the side. Even then that's not serious, because he can have a position as a vedic. Just as there is no rule forbidding any profession from taking any skills, there is no rule saying that all vedics are Mystics, all ambassadors are Diplomats, nor that all scientific researchers are Scientists.

If you want to talk problem pidgeonholing, I'm currently working on Han Solo stats for my Star Wars coda. If I go with his strict background Han is a Rogue who becomes a Starship Officer who becomes a Smuggler who eventually becomes a Soldier who eventually becomes an Envoy. Now that seems way more complicated than it needs to be. My plan is to make his base profession Merchant (since that not only has the skills he needs the most, but also some professional abilities he needs) and go to Smuggler. I don't need to use Rogue because he's not that good of a shot. I don't need to use Starship Officer because he's not an administrator. This is my best solution, even though it doesn't match his 'story'.

Again, my advice is if you make this house rule, you need to make it restrictive enough so that there are no instant profession changes between actual base professions and it is not as inexpensive overall as an elite profession change. I'd suggest you at least make the person switching have every single skill of the new profession at some basic level like 2 or 3+ before letting them switch. Unlike a base to elite profession advancement, they should have to go that extra mile to qualify, otherwise why would they need the profession in the first place.

Your single profession characters that have no intentions of even adopting elite professions may say they are fine with it now, but unconscious resentment is a common gamer trait. It usually expresses itself as dissatisfaction with the game/system (usually without any possible explanation) and/or a refusal or disinterest to play.

Lockhart

[Don Mappin]

Just to clarify, a character can never have more than one base profession. You can pick up as many EPs as you’d like however, just remember the rule about multiple professions on page 155.

With that said if you allow characters to select multiple professions you’re going against some of the design and balance considerations of the game in doing so. It seems the only real reason to switch base professions—a fundamental change in the outlook of a character—is to pick up the spiffy moniker. (“I’m now a rogue, not a merchant.”)

All professional abilities, sans Starship Duty, may be purchased via the innovative trait and the professional skills can also be picked up via other methods, albeit more expensively, via the Rounded professional ability. You won’t be able to change your favored attribute or reaction, however.

A character’s profession is the area of their life where they have focused their interests and developed the foundation that their life revolves around. While people may change, a rogue that becomes a diplomat later in their career is still a rogue at heart. As much as Garek tried to not be a spy (rogue) and instead a merchant, his former occupation always came back to haunt him, as an example.

Also keep in mind that you need not think linearly. If you have a character concept of a Bajoran Vedek (mystic) that later joins the resistance and becomes a saboteur (a rogue), the character’s base profession need not be a mystic. Perhaps it is, in fact, a rogue. Instead you simply purchase the odd skills and abilities as necessary to represent their mystic background. In such a case the character’s defining profession (their “call” if you will), turned up later in their life.

BTW, the reason Garek and Spock are listed, for example, in multiple professions is because they could be from either—you’ll have to see the Narrator’s Guide to actually find out what we made them.

All of this is discussed on a sidebar on page 52 as well.

So, no, you can’t have more than one base profession and, honestly, there isn’t much reason to do so anyway.

[Calcoran]

All right, all right, everyone tells me one cannot change one's base profession, I guess I'll have to back down on this . I don't like it (reminds me too much of Cyberpunk 2020), but I'm backing down.

So, Don, what you're basically saying is that (taking the Vedek -> Resistance Fighter example again) should I really feel the need to expand on the concept, creating a "Resistance Fighetr" (home-)Elite Profession is more in keeping with the game spirit?

[Don Mappin]

Originally posted by Calcoran
So, Don, what you're basically saying is that (taking the Vedek -> Resistance Fighter example again) should I really feel the need to expand on the concept, creating a "Resistance Fighetr" (home-)Elite Profession is more in keeping with the game spirit?

No, what I'm saying is that you could select a base profession that represents the greater majority of the character's background (such as mystic) and simply use the built-in mechanism for picking up those other skills, be it either through Innovative or through an EP. Or start out as a soldier or rogue (their eventual calling) and spend the first few advancements (or species skills) selecting appropriate skills to reflect their Vedek background.

I think it's fundamentally more interesting to have a mystic who has picked up these assorted rogue skills and is attempting to approach solving problems from another angle (blowing things up, rather than talking to them), than to simply jump between two base professions and try to make the multiclass equivalent of a D&D cleric/rogue.

If you feel that its really necessary to be able to switch between base professions then there's certainly nothing stopping you from doing so in your own game.

[Almos]

Don said:
"BTW, the reason Garek and Spock are listed, for example, in multiple professions is because they could be from either—you’ll have to see the Narrator’s Guide to actually find out what we made them."

I think that it'll cenrtainly be interesting to see what you think Garak and Spock (and others) look like. And I agree with you that Garak could be a Merchant, but I still think he would fit better as a Rogue who has taken a few skills and perhaps some ability from the Merchant profession.
But if you make Spock anything but a Starship Science Officer with the Ambassador EP, I'm going to change it!

[Silverthorne]

"the Game Gestapo will not kick down yourdoor just for being creative."

how can we, when we would have to be creative to find him...

[Calcoran]

Originally posted by Don Mappin

No, what I'm saying is that you could select a base profession that represents the greater majority of the character's background (such as mystic) and simply use the built-in mechanism for picking up those other skills, be it either through Innovative or through an EP. Or start out as a soldier or rogue (their eventual calling) and spend the first few advancements (or species skills) selecting appropriate skills to reflect their Vedek background.

Oh too bad, I was sooo looking forward to making a nice Resistance Fighter elite profession .

[DavidSnyder]

>Oh too bad, I was sooo looking forward to making a nice Resistance Fighter elite profession .

Make one anyway. I'd like to see it.

-Dave