Coda Character Creation.

[Calcoran]

Originally posted by C5
Did I make sense ?

As someone who already understood that part, I'd say yes . Objectively, I'd be inclined to think you could have inserted the page numbers for each milestone ... of course, since you'were probably typing this at work, it could have proved a bit difficult .

[C5]

Originally posted by Calcoran

As someone who already understood that part, I'd say yes . Objectively, I'd be inclined to think you could have inserted the page numbers for each milestone ... of course, since you'were probably typing this at work, it could have proved a bit difficult .

Indeed
Although I once had the PG with me at work, but that was the day I bought it

I agree this book has to be read thoroughly before attempting a character creation. I thought I had a good grasp of it when I realised yesterday that I had absolutely no clues about what Elite Professions were.
But it's also true that at least the chapters disposition is not always logical...

[Darth Sarcastic]

Originally posted by PGoodman13

Is there a part of "That's not adequate" that you don't understand?

I understand that what is adequate for one group may not be adequate for another. I understood and was able to make characters with what you considered to be "...not adequate..."

Some of it required reading the book that's all...and again I can see where some people are having trouble. It doesn't mean anybody is stupid or anything like that, it means that the rules could've been explained better...or have been simplified. I myself always liked the old FASA-Trek character creation cheat sheet. Again I say go look at the thread marked "...cheat sheet..." It's helpful, especially combined with PG.

"You'll just have to give it your best shot."
"My best shot, Doctor?"
"Guess Mr. Spock, your best guess."
"Guessing is not in my nature Doctor."
"Well, nobody's perfect."

When the NG finally comes out (we should all live so long...) I'm sure it will be chock full of nuggets of wisdom and perhaps a clearer MORE adequate version of the character creation rules.

-Darth Sarcastic

[Scotty]

Species: Human
Adaptable (+2 Quickness)
The Human Spirit (+1 courage)
Skilled (+2 personal skill)

Str 9 (+1) Quickness +2 +2 = +4
Agl 10 (+2) Savvy +1
Int 8 (+1) Stamina +1
Vit 7 (+0) Willpower +1
Pre 5 (+0) Courage 4
Per 8 (+1) Renown 0
Health 7+1= 8

Species stuff (8*2=16 picks):
Language (Federation Standard) +4
Culture (Human) +4
History (Human) +4
Specific World (Earth) +4

Personal Development: Starfleet Brat
Computer Use +2
Athletics +1
Sport +1
System Operation +1
Edge: Fit

Skilled (Humain trait):
Sport +1
Repair +1

Professional Development: Basic Security Officer
Athletics (Climb) +2
Energy Weapon +3
First Aid +1
Inquire (Interrogate) +1
Investigate (Search) +2
Repair +1
System Operations (Security System) +2
Tactics +1
Unarmed Combat (self defense) +2
And the +5 for Professional Skill:
Observe +2
Survival +1
Tactics +1
Unarmed Combat (Kung Fu) +1

[Scotty]

And the above skills would give a total of . . . . . .

Athletics (Climb)+3
Computer Use +2
Energy Weapon +3
Inquire (Interrogate) +1
Investigate (Search) +2
Knowledge
Culture (Human) +4
History (Human) +4
Specific World (Earth) +4
Language
Federation Standard +4
Observe +2
Repair +2
Sport +2
System Ops (Security System) +3
Tactics +2
Unarmmed Combat (Self Defense, Kung Fu) +3

Correct??

[Calcoran]

Looks good to me.

[Acroyear]

Ok. I think I have it (? - well, I thought that twice now)

Choose personal background (follow the pick 1 pick 3 thing)

Choose professional background - do not take all the listed skills, just the ones that actually indicate +1 or whatnot. The skills list, itself, is just for reference in terms of advancement.

I don't understand the point of the professions section, then, which comes before all that. It lists skills and their professional abilities? We don't choose from any of this, then?

I agree, page 20-21 are not nearly clear enough. The cheat sheet is also lacking (steps seem to be missing). I thought I had a handle on it, too... turns out I didn't, that means the resources available aren't clear enough. I'm also finding I like the layout of the PG less and less.

[Ramage]

Okay, so it seems there is still a lot of discussion even on this board about the "right" way to create a character.

Now think about the people who don't come to this board.

Think about the people who only have the rulebook and no one else who has ever heard of the game.

This still looks like a case of very sloppy editing.

I like the game. I think it has a lot of potential (as I said before). OTOH it is NOT user friendly.

Is the "Limited Edition" to be exactly the same or will it give clear examples?

[Calcoran]

Acroyear:

I don't understand the point of the professions section, then, which comes before all that. It lists skills and their professional abilities? We don't choose from any of this, then?

I'd say it helps you <I>chose</I> your profession. It shows you all the great things you'll be able to do, etc. ... when you gain some advancements. And you get to pick one professional ability for free. The professional packages are there to tell you what you currently can do: Standard skills, plus 5 times +1 that you chose from the skill list.

I'm also finding I like the layout of the PG less and less.

As I said, it's no good if you plan to rush in and read only excerpts of the book. But once you've read from the front page to the end, you understand the logic of it all. It's very well designed for using during the game or during character creation, as rules are exactly where you remember them to be (contrary to LUG or Vampire where rules used to move around the book in a very irritating manner ).

Ramage:

Now think about the people who don't come to this board.

Well, they won't grab their keyboards and ask questions, they'll just learn to read sequentially .

Funny how humans strive to find flaws when they encounter nice work (I just saw it happen this morning with a very nice pre-mass-prod cell phone a colleague was working on: it was great, just great, but I kept going "why haven't they made it that way, it'd have been better" ).

[Don Mappin]

Originally posted by PGoodman13

Is there a part of "That's not adequate" that you don't understand?

I understand that there's no reason for you to be rude. You may want to change your tone before I do it for you.

As to holding me in some way responsible for the layout of the book, the placement of chapters, or the flowchart on pages 20-21, you're barking up the wrong tree. I am a writer. That means I write. The developer, the layout person, and other people who actually work for Decipher (I'm a freelancer, not a Decipher employee) take care of those tasks. Considering I, and others, are here on our own free time providing assistance you might want to show just a tad bit of gratitude.

I've spoken to Ross about the comments on having a clearer method of character generation and some alternatives are being considered. Perhaps a one-page step-by-step sheet for free download.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Calcoran
[B]

I'd say it helps you <I>chose</I> your profession. It shows you all the great things you'll be able to do, etc. ... when you gain some advancements. And you get to pick one professional ability for free. The professional packages are there to tell you what you currently can do: Standard skills, plus 5 times +1 that you chose from the skill list.

Hm. Yes, I like the layout less and less. It is silly to have that information in two different places like that - and then have each section list some of the information the same and some of it different - over here with have professional abilities, over there we have edges, in both places we have the prof skill list, but over there we have the starting skills and back over here we have the favored stat and reaction listed... This is not good layout. it should be in one place or the other... like the species section.

As I said, it's no good if you plan to rush in and read only exerpts of the book. But once you've read from the front page to the end, you understand the logic of it all. It's very well designed for using during the game or during character creation, as rules are exactly where you remember them to be (contrary to LUG or Vampire where rules seem to move around the book in a very irritating manner )

Right. Please stop assuming no one is reading the book. I'm beginning to find such comments insulting. I've read through it. I've read many sections multiple times. There are sections I'm still reading more times. I've waited a week or more before even trying to put a character together. The writing isn't very clear in sections which is compounded by (or maybe even caused by) layout decisions. Your mental capacity is obviously far beyond mine. Obviously, the rest of us idiots need a different approach. I wouldn't dream of putting this book in front of someone new to roleplaying. I'd flat out offer suggestions against it.

I've yet to experience this "rules exactly where I remember them" thing due to the "logic" of the layout. It's more akin to them being so sprinkled about that you dare not forget unless you want to waste more time hunting them up.

Funny how humans strive to find flaws when they encounter nice work

Funny, too, how those with lower standards of quality are surprised by those who don't share them.

[Calcoran]

Oh well, why do I care?

[PGoodman13]

Originally posted by Don Mappin
I understand that there's no reason for you to be rude. You may want to change your tone before I do it for you.

Fair enough. That was far snarkier than was actually called for, and I apologize, both to Darth Sarcastic and to you.

As to holding me in some way responsible for the layout of the book, the placement of chapters, or the flowchart on pages 20-21, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Never said you were responsible (and I went back and checked just to be sure). I did say, though, that it appeared that you were in on the project from the start, and having been in on it from the start, you might have some insight on the situation in question. If I was incorrect, then I apologize.

I am a writer. That means I write.

I'm quite aware of what a writer does. I am, too, and likewise a freelancer (though I must admit, lately it's been more free than lance).

I've worked on game products before, Don, and I know most of the big decisions get made in an office an awfully long way from where I am. But developers ask questions of their writers, and they sure ask questions of their playtesters. I know there's more interaction there than you seem to be implying. I realize you didn't make any sort of decision about the chargen summary in the PG, but surely this sort of question came up during playtest. All I asked for was an answer that someone with some sort of connection to the development staff could have gotten an answer to. I addressed the question to you because you seem to be of the opinion that the summary in the PG was a well-blazed path, and I am of a somewhat different opinion.

I will, in future, refrain from asking you questions regarding why something is in the book or not.

Considering I, and others, are here on our own free time providing assistance you might want to show just a tad bit of gratitude.

Again, fair enough...but you might also consider being a tad less condescending. Yes, I know this is your playground, and I'm enormously grateful for the forum you provide. Truly, I am. But I also have opinions that will, in many respects, be considerably different from yours, and I'm likely to voice them on occasion.

Being grateful doesn't mean that I should bend over, and my gratitude doesn't necessarily extend to being treated like I'm 12. If this attitude means you don't want me to play in your sandbox, that's okay, too. I'm a big boy.

I've spoken to Ross about the comments on having a clearer method of character generation and some alternatives are being considered. Perhaps a one-page step-by-step sheet for free download.

I thank you for your time. A one-page guide would be wonderful.

[Don Mappin]

I did say, though, that it appeared that you were in on the project from the start, and having been in on it from the start, you might have some insight on the situation in question.

I have no input on book layout or placement. That falls squarely in the prevue of the Line Developer. By the time I saw the galleys and the questionable placement of the chapters, it was far, far too late and you overestimate my importance in the process. (Again, not a Decipher employee.)

I realize you didn't make any sort of decision about the chargen summary in the PG, but surely this sort of question came up during playtest. All I asked for was an answer that someone with some sort of connection to the development staff could have gotten an answer to. I addressed the question to you because you seem to be of the opinion that the summary in the PG was a well-blazed path, and I am of a somewhat different opinion.

I think the summary is adequate, especially if you read through all the chapters. I will admit to a fair amount of page-flipping—I think this is directly related to the placement of the chapters. As for generation, the two page spread is, in my mind, adequate and the text itself in each respective section tells you what to do. Now, if this isn’t the case, could someone please point it out to me? I mean, people are outright missing the fact that they get to spend their Intx2 in special ‘rounding’ species skills yet there it is in a huge sidebar at the front of a chapter that tells them to do this. Where does the responsibility lie in people actually reading the text? The big blue box that says “Species Skills” seems awfully obvious to me.

With that said, I understand that people are having difficulties in fully-absorbing the character creation process and I’d like to address it.

Again, fair enough...but you might also consider being a tad less condescending.

When I and fellow players pause to help people and answer their questions and are met with “Is there a part of "That's not adequate" that you don't understand?” I think we’re allowed.

It’s a two-way street.

Being grateful doesn't mean that I should bend over, and my gratitude doesn't necessarily extend to being treated like I'm 12.

I don’t want gratitude, a pat on the back, or a buddy. I’d like for people to get along and if they have a problem to pipe up and ask for help—politely. You’d be amazed how many of us are willing to help people, in an non-patronizing manner, that don’t act like 12-year olds. This board is an amazingly friendly place. (Kudos to Darth Sarcastic for the level head.)

If I didn’t think the concerns that I read on this board aren’t important, I wouldn’t be having conversations with Ross about steps that could be taken to clarify character generation and make it a little easier for those that need a hand. I’ve got a huge impending deadline in front of me. Ross is also likewise swamped, yet we both hear and understand you and want to help out. Complaining and making jabs at people trying to help out isn’t going to improve the situation.

Finally, if you think dissenting opinions aren’t welcome around here, then you’re obviously new! Have Phantom show you around.

[Sawyer II]

Originally posted by Don Mappin
I've spoken to Ross about the comments on having a clearer method of character generation and some alternatives are being considered. Perhaps a one-page step-by-step sheet for free download.

As with some newer gaming products, a "quick-start" pamphlet might be what you are looking for, a "dumbed-down" version of how to make a character and start the game. The new Marvel Super-Hero version of MageKnight has one.