Season Ender.

[ds9guy]

I apologize I did not intend my post to be read in a solely negative fashion. I was not intending to bash "enterprise". I fear I was venting too much my disappointment without being more specigfic exactly what I was talking about.

perhaps in anotehr thread someone could start an analysis of enterprise?

Monty

[AslanC]

Originally posted by AdmGonzalez
[B]Nobody looks at NYPD Blue and longs for it to be more like Hill Street Blues. I don't give up on ER because it isn't as warm and fuzzy as St. Elsewhere was back in the 1980s.

I do, as those two shows were groundbreakers when they aired and NYPD Blue is an exercise is seeing how tense they can make the censor. And don't even get me started on ER.

Hill Street Blues was a classic.

Same for St Elsehere.

ER and NYPD Blue are simply marketing.

Same thing for Enterprise.

Sorry to disagree with you Admiral. My dislike of Enterprise is not becuase it isn't "Star Trek", but becuase for me it is a bad show. Poorly written and poorly executed.

I could care less about the Stra Trek angle or the continuity... it's just bad sci-fi.

IMHO <--- the most important part of this message. I accept that others will disagree with me. I encourage it.

The following is to the general population, not anyone person.

I could go on and on about the Enterprise apologists, but I don't. I accept that they like a show that I don't.

Now maybe some of them could accept that some of us don't like it. Instead of getting upset with us and telling us how wrong we are, why don't they leave it alone, go and talk with those who liked it and have a good time.

We Enterprise "bashers" (as we have been labeled) are quite happy amoungst ourselves trashing the show.

I know, I know, Preaching to the Choir and all that... but still.

Stop trying to color us as bad people becuase w don't like the show. I don't think any less of you for liking it.

[Phantom]

Amen.

[Doug Burke]

Originally posted by AslanC
I could go on and on about the Enterprise apologists, but I don't. I accept that they like a show that I don't.

Now maybe some of them could accept that some of us don't like it. Instead of getting upset with us and telling us how wrong we are, why don't they leave it alone, go and talk with those who liked it and have a good time.

We Enterprise "bashers" (as we have been labeled) are quite happy amoungst ourselves trashing the show.

Now, before I say anything, I want to make it perfectly clear that I am not trying to start a flame war or any kind of arguement.

That being said, maybe, just maybe, those who have liked the show have been reading and listening to all the so-called "bashing" going on for a whole season and it is getting tiresome. Maytbe they felt it was time to take a stand for a show they enjoy. A show that has been being bashed for longer than it has even been on the air thanks to the mere identity and perceived abilities of the producers.

Maybe some of those who dislike the show could accept that some of us do like it. Instead of getting upset with us and telling us how wrong we are, why don't they leave it alone, go and talk with those who didn't like it and have a good time?

BTW, if "bashers" can be considered an offesnive term, just think of how offensive "apologists" sounds. I, for one, am not apologizing for the show. I don't feel it requires it. If you don't like it, I couldn't care less. But I'll be damned if anyone is going to try to tell me otherwise by slapping some label on me.

Think of it as common courtesy. If you want us to respect your dislike, then please respect our affinity. Let's just agree to disagree, drop the freaking subject and move on with our lives, eh? I've survived 30 years in the state of Utah by taking the same attitude about religion, so it might work with this, too.

[AslanC]

And I don't disagree with you Doug, not one bit but lets be honest, how often do those who dislike Enterprise here attack of tell the "likers" (better term?) they are wrong? If they do, they should apologize for doing.

I have held my tounge as best I can. But everytime someone says something negative about the show, someone jumps on them. Does the same thing happenw itht he same regularity when someone says something ncie about it? It doesn't seem that way to me.

Now I don't want to start a flame war either. I am more than happy to drop the topic and move on and let the more rabid argue it out. I simply had my fill and had to say something. Much like you it seems

[AdmGonzalez]

I agree with the fact that everyone has a right to their opinion. In fact I realize the majority of the universe has an opinion different than my own.

What I am hoping for is for some constructive opinons. If someone wants to hate Enterprise, more power to them. If that person want to tell the whole world, or everyone on trek-rpg.net, I welcome them to do so.

But please give us more than it's just bad. Tell what makes it bad. What could be better. Convince me you are right. It's not impossible.

As I said, I like Enterprise. I also liked Voyager. And I liked DS9 when everyone was trashing it because B5 was so much better. But I agree they aren't the best shows on television. I would laugh if the shows beat the Sopranos, The West Wing or CSI for Emmy awards.

Heck, I even agree that Babylon 5 was one of the best Sci-Fi shows ever made. But that didn't make me appreciate DS9 any less.

I remember a couple of years ago I said that I didn't like Farscape because it was too much like muppets in space. There wasn't enough drama or plot and the jokes were often too silly. Since then, the show has improved and I look forward to any chance I have to watch the show. It has two of the best sub-plots ever to span from one season to another to another.

I wasn't attacking anyone who doesn't like Enterprise. If it seemed that way I apologize for not making myself understood clearly.

I'm just looking for intelligent conversation. There are too many boards where everyone makes general statements. We're smarter than your average fan, so lets see some real debate.

Peace.

[Doug Burke]

Actually, Aslan, I have seen it go both ways. In fact, until the past couple of months, there seemed to be a tacit attitude of "Thou Shalt Not Like Enterprise" going around. And I'm not just talking here. I'm talking in general. It was nice to have people defending the show instead of trying to scuttle it. Just as ended up happening with 2 out of the three previous spin-offs.

But, like we both agreed, bygones are bygones. To-may-to, to-mah-to. One man's tripe is another man's entertainment. Just trying to blow off some steam.

[Phantom]

Wow! I seem to have created a bit of a monster here, not my intention...Really.

As to the reasons I don't like the show I have said them repeatedly on these boards, and I don't think I need to rehash them fully here.

I do have one question of you Aslan. The reasons why I don't like the show have to do with the writing, producers cavalier attittude toward fan opinion and some of the acting caliber on the show. I have always considered it passible sci-fi, but not Trek. If I understand what you are saying you believe that it is a bad show because it is "bad sci-fi", not because it is "bad Trek." How do you mean it is bad SF? I've never really heard anyone say it is "bad sci-fi."

I know that I have gotten a little heated in discussions on the topic of Ent., but I think we might be heading toward a flame war here. This has turned into a bit more of an argument then I intended...I don't mind a good debate (since I started this,) and we all have kept it civil, but please be careful.

Pax

[AslanC]

Phantom you ask I respond.

Sci-Fi is not just space ships and ray guns and aliens, etc... Flash Gordon was never Sci-Fi and neither has been anything Trek since the original series went off the air.

TNG was mostly melodrama in futuristic clothing
DS9 was a western in the future
VOY was actually the closest to Sci-Fi (as science played a big part of it) but alas B&B have no clue about how science works (going back to their TNG days) that it becomes painful to watch.

Others have stated time and time again how bad the science in Star Trek has been since TNG hit the air. I am not a scientist and could not make the arguement as well as they do, so I won't.

So let's say for example that Enterprise is Sci-Fi or Science Fiction. Well what science have we seen play a major part in the story? Theoretical time travel. The basic tech level of the show.

Have we seen any episodes where science has had to save the day? Where are the space ameobas? Where are the duplicate Earths? Where is the struggle of man against the starkness of science?

Enterprise is bad sci-fi because it ignores science and tries to be an action adventure show, which for me it is also failing at miserably.

So without a good elvel of action/adventure to keep me interested. No sci in the sci-fi. The acting passable (I was a supporter of Bakula, but man he has let me down). And the obviously childish writing (Ever hear Robert Beltran talk about the final seasons of Voyager? Most of these people are still writing for B&B), I have no reason to watch the show anymore. And I don't. The Vulcan Mind Meld episode was the last straw for me. Since then I saw the Ferengi episode on tape (and I admit I laughed a lot) and the Season finale (on tape and wanted to poop on it after it was done).

Just not my cup of tea.

I hope this helps clear it up without adding too much murkiness to the water.

[Phantom]

Yes, AC it does. I do see your point, and I half agree (mainly on the Ent front.) I have always considered Trek good sci-fi TOS - Voy. Certainly some false starts, but good shows none the less. but as has been said before "to each...etc. ad nauseum."

I did hear something about Beltran saying that the writers wouldn't listen to input from the actors regarding their roles, is this what you mean?

Missed the Mind meld ep...Sounds like a good thing.

[Dan Stack]

My quick opinion of the finale. As an apparent "Enterprise Aplogist" I thought it was... ok. Some things I found interesting, though I found the build-up a little too slow for my tastes. A nice change of pace in some ways but I would have preferred a bit more movement. I also tend to not like having no clue as to the meta-plot - probably the reason I never cared for X-Files so I found the future-guy scenes frustrating. I don't mind some mystery, but I find it frustrating that I really know no more about the temporal cold war than I did in the first episode.

Things I did like included T'Pol's support of Archer, giving her character nice development from her original "this is a foolish mission" attitude. I also liked Archer "leaping" into his past. The time travel was a nice change from the traditional "go back and restore the timeline" - seemed more like a "repair the timeline". Like I said, I just want to know why.


Now, a bit about my attitude toward the show itself.

I like it a lot. I believe I'm objective enough to see some faults, but heck, if I nitpicked myself the way some nitpick the show, I'd never gamemaster another adventure! I like the feel, the characters, the stories, the technology, and the continuity. It works for me.

And I can see that it doesn't work for everyone. But I don't get the constant "the show is a waste of an hour of my life" attitude. (Note - overstating to make a point)

I really really didn't like Voyager as a whole. Every once in a while I'd tune in and watch a rerun I heard was good, but overall, I didn't watch it that much. I found it disappointing, albeit with some good moments and interesting ideas. But others like it. Two players in my gaming group are big fans. I think it'd be rude if every time they came over my house for a game I went into a long diatribe about how much I hated that show. They know I didn't care for it, but I don't need to convince them to dislike it. They like it and they're intelligent people. Intelligent people can disagree. I just don't understand obsessing on the negative, something which seems incredibly prevalent on the internet, and not just about Enterprise but about anything - Star Wars, d20, N'Sync, Eminem, Collectible Card Games, College Basketball - you name it. Life just seems too short. If I don't like something, I try to (not always with success) just shrug my shoulders and let it go. When it comes down to it, it is just a tv show. For entertainment, I'd rather obsess over things I enjoy and save getting worked up for politics.

[AslanC]

Dan I agree with all your points.

But if humans weren't allowed to focus on the negative, nothing would ever get fixed

[Sho-sa Kurita]

Originally posted by AslanC
But if humans weren't allowed to focus on the negative, nothing would ever get fixed

That's a good point which brings a question to mind:

How many of the folks here have actually mailed (e- or snail-) the infamous B&B to tell them your views on Enterprise (or Voyager for that matter)?

I, for one, have not.

-- Daniel

[REG]

You don't have to. You simply express your opinion on the internet like the USENET newsgroup and they're bound to read them ... and later chide us in their interview for not being open-minded enough to their work.