Overpriced advantages

[Dave R42]

Hi I’ve had the LUG TNG book for a while and am finally getting round to doing something with it.
Anyway I’ve been looking over the character creation rules and it appears to me that all the advantages that give you extra dice are overpriced. For example, Tactical Genius costs 3points and gives you an extra dice with all starship and planetary tactics, strategic operations and administration (logistics) skill checks. The problem with this is that these are all intellect based skill and you could therefore get the same effect for two points by increasing you intellect as well as all the other benefits from and increase in intellect.

My Question is has anyone else noticed this and if so what changes have you made?

At the moment I’m considering reducing the cost of all these advantages to 1 point which would put them on a par with edges (they both give you an extra dice in limited situations)

Oh and of course fell free to call me an idiot if I’ve missed something obvious and there is no problem

[Dan Gurden]

Yes, but the point is exactly the same as with CODA... These advantages show their True cost when a character has already reached the maximum attribute or skill stat. At that point it offers Yet Another die, over and above the roll another character with the exact same maxed out stats but without the advantage gets...

Put that way, the 3 points is not too expensive, but quite reasonable in fact... Its just that it doesn't show its true colours for some time...

[Capt. K. Vaughn]

I have always looked on the "Genius" advantages as a flavor thing, myself.

Regards,
CKV.

[Lancer]

I agree with Dan. Tactical Genius offers an additional advantage once you maxed your Intellect, but as another die to roll when you have 5 dice from your Int already doesn't make much difference, I also have to agree with CKV that it can be used quite well as "flavoring" for a character.

Apart from the rules argument there is the factor of character concept. Maybe you just want to create a character who is good at tactics without having a high-level intellect.


If you feel you absolutely must reduce the cost of this advantage don't give it away for 1 point. Once you hand out Tactical Genius for only 1 point there is nothing to stop a character from increasing his Intellect as well for another 2 points. By reducing the cost from 3 to 1 you will hand out +1 Int and the advantage for the same cost the advantage alone has now.

If you want to balance the advanatges like Tactical Genius and others like it how about keeping the cost at 3 points, but handing out another bonus with it?
Maybe giving these characters 1 or 2 additional Renown will do the trick for you. To me it seems not unlikely that a "genius" would have a little more renown than other characters who have to work harder for the same effect.

[Phoenix]

The house rule I use for the added die advantages is, you add a half die to the specilization. I also discourage the use of multiple added die to the same character. Basiclly your paying 3 DP (or 12 Xp) for a plus 1-3 on your tactics etc...

It's worked for me so far.

[Diamond]

Getting 1-3 added to your tactics is way too high a bonus for a three point advantage. That's the equivalent to 1-3 added to your skill, but it applies in all tactical skills AND it's a general skill, not a specialization. That's functinally equivalent to a 1-3 bonus to starship AND planetary tactics skills, normally with a point cost of 6-18 DP. You're offering it for 3 DP, but it's even better than that because it lets you go higher than the normal skill maximum!

Letting you go higher than the skill max is definetly why advantages are more costly - that's a significant benefit! Consider the "weapon master" advantage. It's functionally equivalent at first to just increasing your weapon's skill specalization. BUT it allows you to break the '6' ceiling.

[Dave R42]

Ok, thanks for the responses most of which I agree with to some degree, I’ll respond to each in turn

1, The advantage reaches its full value when a character Max outs his attribute.
Yes this had occurred to me, but I’m not sure how often character attributes are maximised during play. This is part of the reason I posted on the boards, if in peoples experience this happens fairly often then I might leave it as it stands.

2, It should be a question of character concept.
Again I agree that the most important aspect of creating a character is the concept. The problem is I feel that at the moment someone is penalised for having a concept, when if anything they should be rewarded

3, Add a bonus to the total roll
I agree that this is too much of a benefit

4, Add an additional benefit
I also thought of this but couldn’t think of anything decent, but I do like the renown idea, and will have to think this over some more.

Once again thanks

[Capt. K. Vaughn]

I've never found it to be a penalty in the various games I have run and played in...it adds flavor and defines the character but then we've rarely ever been worried about purchasing power of a given DP.

A well-developed concept though that is role-played is rewarded in our games...extra renown if once again the PC is witnessed as a genius and usually an extra point of experience or two depending on the circumstances.

It all comes down to your point of view during development.

Regards,
CKV.

[Dan Gurden]

Originally posted by Dave R42
Ok, thanks for the responses most of which I agree with to some degree, I’ll respond to each in turn

1, The advantage reaches its full value when a character Max outs his attribute.
Yes this had occurred to me, but I’m not sure how often character attributes are maximised during play. This is part of the reason I posted on the boards, if in peoples experience this happens fairly often then I might leave it as it stands.

If you play a character long enough then anything is possible.

However if you tend to find that your games either fizzle out or are mostly one-shot adventures, then simply point out this fact to incomming characters and get them to spend the points on their stats and edges instead, thus making them far more powerful in the first place.

YMMV, and probably does, but for my money, I see no problem with the status quo... But its your game so go for your life with the 1 point advantages...

As an aside, does that really Underpower the 1 point advantages???

[Lancer]

Originally posted by Dave R42
1, The advantage reaches its full value when a character Max outs his attribute.
Yes this had occurred to me, but I’m not sure how often character attributes are maximised during play. This is part of the reason I posted on the boards, if in peoples experience this happens fairly often then I might leave it as it stands.

In the 3 years our game has been going only one character ever increased an attribute during play. OTOH we all started with 2 Tours of Duty and ignored the rule that allows you only to raise Perc and Will edges at later stages of character creation, so we all had a chance to start with the attributes we wanted.

Once you get the attributes up to 4, the dice rolling mechanics make the advantage you get from any further increase neglectable IMO.

[Bear]

Okay gang this one is a no brainer....if you are worried about PC's maxing out in Attributes then as a ref (ST whatever) simply control the xp's and the way they are distributed. It is essentially your story and your game that the pc's are playing.(They swim in your pool...etc) How you manange or reward them is with other things (i.e. richer storylines ....medals(RENOWN!!!) what have you...the rules are a guideline not a bible.
I also agree with the last post....in my current game that has run for many many months almost no one has riased an attribute to the point of ridiculusness Is that a word???) but they still return to play and have a blast...they are occasionally more interested in skills and specialties (For Promotions...) but they still have a basic understanding for the pseudo reality I pulg into my games (i.e. how long in the US NAVY it takes for a Lt to make Lt Commander...) Simply because they achive the renown and skills does not automatically make them that rank.....only qualifies them for it once they hit the number of years that moves them up in seniority on the promotions list (i.e. time in rank...)
Take the old FASA rulebook (circa 1983)'s listing of the main characters for STAR TREK TOS. These were to show Starfleet's best and brightest crew. This was done to give the players something to work towards in time.....time regulated by the Ref in his game. LUG did the same thing by showing you the main characters in the shows of the main rulebooks.....should anyone follow the xp's chart and hand out the exact number of xp's (like when an adventure ended in the old AD&D for example) then in just under a year or two in a weekly run game the pc's would eventually outstrip the crew of the Federation's Flagship in skills advantages and attributes. A degree of common sense must be added to anyone's campaign, or else it will tip the scales of Trek's pseudo reality.
I know this rant does not actually address the main issue but it was something I had to get off my chest. Shoudl it not apply to you the please chalk it up to the Bear ...well being grumpy and having heard this time old arguement (the one I wrote about) once to often.
Keep the dream alive folks by running the games and do what it takes for your group to enjoy your games. In a sense :

"Live Long and Prosper"

[Don Mappin]

Kind of off-topic, but as far as character growth and monitoring these boards, seeing people post their characters, and discussions on XP awards, I think the vast majority of people seem to give out way too much XP. Either that or they’re playing a LOT of Trek sessions.

Now, I’m all for encouraging people to run games as they see fit (yes, you have my “permission”) so this isn’t a big deal.

To the topic at hand, I can think of at least one character that had Tactical Genius and it was his favorite advantage of them all. He loved using it and it help define his character in interesting ways. He never complained (nor noticed) that it cost him more to get this advantage, and he did eventually raise his Intellect to where his tactics tests were downright scary.

I would also point out that there are limitations on how many points can be spent to raise an attribute during character generation and what attributes can be raised during the different development stages. (Most people ignore these rules, however, so I’m not surprised to hear that there are lots of high Intellects running around in Icon.)

So, from a number-crunching standpoint, I can see your point. Personally, I wouldn’t change the cost—I’ve sat down and helped newbies with no experience create Star Trek characters and the first step is we look through the advantages/disadvantages. Seeing cool things like Tactical Genus, irregardless of its cost, are what generate the ideas that make great RP. If you’re worried about players getting the short end in DP with these traits then you can just slide them some extra DP like I do to help round out their character.

I’d much rather have my players selecting Tactical Genius because it sounds cool and helps define their character than watch them break out the calculator and turn character-building into a mathematics exercise.

Good luck!

[Capt. K. Vaughn]

I'll second what Don said. If a player has a particular concept in mind then I have in the past given out more DP to allow the concept's creation.

There is even what I am sure Don would classify as an "Epic" character in the Personnel section of the website. She's a bit more skilled now since her original posting but in the eleven years that character has been active, first in FASA and then in LUG, I've never had problems developing scenarios to challenge even a group that skilled.

Though granted, most of the characters in my campaigns are not that skilled, though one group including Commander Helena Mudd did finally rival Starfleet's best and brightest. But took years and years...both real and game time. Most of those characters also participated in several campaigns before retirement or death removed them from the main picture.

In every case but one, I've never had a player min-max their stats and all have chosen some form of concept advantage during character generation.

My players generally are highly skilled because their characters usually decide at some point that cross-training is a really great thing and would rather have the ranks then the attributes.

I also use a system where if they screw up, their renown is effected in some way and that causes renown to fluctuate reducing the meteoric rise that some people remain concerned about.

Regards,
CKV.

[Bear]

Thanks again for allowing the rant..I am sorry it got off of the topic. I wish to agree with Don on the above. Besides Tactical Genius I have run into two others that may pose a problem unless run by a responsible player. I have been lucky trusting two relatively new players with Battle Hardened which allows an extra Courage point during times of battle and extreme stress, and ofcourse Resistant (+2 to +4) both from the Players Guide. Both players gave a reason and built a nice rich background around the how and why. So I allowed it, I see nothing really wrong with such advantages as long as they never tip the board in the game. However there are always around such things.
For example the more skilled and advanced a party becomes the stronger the challenge or advesary should become. If they want the extra dice then ...by all means give them reason to use them ! The BORG anyone?? Heheh....
Another method for controlling the "Advantage" traits if you feel you must is to balance them off with an equal costing Disadvantage explained by their background. That fits into your campaign...(i.e. someone with 'Battle Hardened may suffer emotionally from his/her expierences..(I.e. Nightmares, Flashbacks..etc)....or some officer with Resitant may have an allergy of some sort to balance the play...also a neat way to absorb some of those xp's to eventually ...in character rolplay buy them off...)

Just my two cents...thanks and sorry again for the above rant. The advantages can add to almost any situation and guide the players into a new realm of RP. Keep the flame alive folks and always ....

"REMEMBER"