Klingon Houses?

[AslanC]

I have a question...

Worf was the son of Mogh
Duras was of House Duras
Martok was of House Martok

When does houses get made? How do they get made? Are there a finite number of them?

[ghosty]

I think there are as many houses as the GM wants... I think one of the web-books put a number on it, DWS I think...I'm not in the mood to dig it up to check.

Its not canon but I think Houses are created by the High Council and are probably named after its founder. Like most races, Klingons probably have a habit of reusing names of famous ancestors, hence Martok of the House of Martok. The house isn't named after General Martok but his ancestor the founder of the House of Martok.

The High Council can create new houses around warriors who make a name for themselves if his deeds were particularly heroic or honourable. A tall order among Klingons.

When Houses undergo a radical change in leadership, the name is changed. Remember that little incident with Quark?

[AslanC]

I was thinking maybe when a hero distinguishes himself, the High Council gives him dispensation to create a new house. Otherwise warriors align them selves to varuious houses or simply serve the KDF.

I also figure when a Klingon gains command of a ship, it is considered his ship and baring death or losing his honor it will be his until he dies or gives it away.

[Lt.Khrys Antos]

Wouldn't the power structure be reversed somewhat when concerned with house creation?

Houses IMO, would be formed by several events such as inter-clan warfare, internal house politics and maybe even through marriages. Major houses formed out of necessity to rule, a creation of a voting block sort of. Allied houses could after decades merge through multiple marriages effectibely creating a larger, more powerful house able to command respect in the High Council. Famed warriors with alot of battles around their belt can probably form a house when clanless Klingons form a group to express their interests. I've always believed that Houses were family oriented interest groups which can be very persuasive when necessary.

If the High Council dispensed House Creating Permits(tm), then it could logically favor one over another, therefore creating houses at the bottom to control them. Houses do fall from "grace" such as Duras, Mogh and other dishonoured few.

Just my thoughts.

[Balok]

If it's like royal land grants, the central authority (in this case, the Council) giveth ... and the central authority taketh away. But, clearly, the Council is at least partially controlled by members of the houses, so there's room for a lot of politics. Houses could change for political reasons as often as for deeds of valor (despite what the Klingon Code would seem to say about that).

Presumably, smaller houses align themselves with larger more powerful houses, as "cadet" branches of noble families did. These smaller houses might be run by cousins or other relatives, and probably aspire to greatness ... more politics.

It just seems to fit the feudal model, except that the Houses receive authority, perhaps control of trade routes, and a role in the KDF, instead of land grants.

[Greg Smith]

It does seem that houses are renamed fairly frequently. The only houses mentioned on screen are named for their current leader or for the previous leader. We don't see any houses named for their long dead founders.

When Quark marries Grilka, the house becomes the House of Quark.

Martok was born a commoner, so he wouldn't have inherited his house. Which suggests he was granted it for his heroics or married into it.

Yet the Houses of Duras and Mogh retain their names even after their leaders have died.

So I guess naming conventions are not set in stone.

[ghosty]

Originally posted by Greg Smith
It does seem that houses are renamed fairly frequently. The only houses mentioned on screen are named for their current leader or for the previous leader. We don't see any houses named for their long dead founders.

Families tend to have names that turn up again and again every few generations. Remember Worf from STVI? So Mogh could be a name which shows up in Worf's family tree many times since the founding of the House of Mogh.

When Quark marries Grilka, the house becomes the House of Quark.

There was a change in the family line leading the house hence the change of name which is a sufficiently radical change to mandate a change of name. If I recall it was also approved by a vote of the Klingon High Council.

[spyone]

Originally posted by ghosty
Like most races, Klingons probably have a habit of reusing names of famous ancestors, hence Martok of the House of Martok. The house isn't named after General Martok but his ancestor the founder of the House of Martok.

Actually, Martok was low-born. So it is fairly clear that House Martok is a recent creation, named for the general.

Now, why wasn't House Mogh turned into House Worf when Mogh died? Why were Lursa and Bator still refered to as part of House Duras long after Duras dies and his son claimed his throne? Why wasn't Duras leader of House Jarod (his father's name)? All good questions to which I have not got answers.
I mention them because, as GM, you are going to have to explain them.

The best notion I can come up with is much like the "great change" comments above. Duras had earned some distinction while leader of his house, thus changing the name to his own. Worf had not done so. Quark achieved the distinction either (dealer's choice) by simply being a Ferengi or by killing the Head of Household.

(drifting off-topic) Which might make Worf the head of House Gowron now. And it would be called House Worf. Hmmm.

[The Tatterdemalion King]

the LUGtrek klingon book .pdfs has some house info (how they are made, etc) iirc

[Imagus]

I'm not sure where the High Council comes into it to be honest!

My impression is that a House is created whenever somebody thinks they can form one.

This would not be as often as it might seem, as creating an upstart House would be considered grounds for insult by one of the more established Houses, and the new House would rapidly cease to exist. A House created by edict of the High Council (extremely rare) would have the protection of the Council, which explains how Martok could get away with it.

A House would be named whatever its head wants. Usually this would be the name of the head, but if he has an illustrious ancestor, then he might select them. Houses would frequently change names with new heads, but not always. Well established Houses would maintain their existing names to reduce confusion and boast of their links to great warriors.

The High Council is basically an oligarchy made up of the highest ranking Houses. A House can consider itself "official" when invited to join the Council - these might be called Great Houses. They would get access to better technology, trade and resources.

The ritual of creating a House would probably consist of standing before the High Council and declaring its existence and challenging naysayers to quash the upstart if they can.

A House builds, owns and maintains its own fleet of ships. The High Council has the right to call on these in time of war - refusal might be considered grounds for discommodation. It may be that the larger ship classes (beyond B'rel in size) might be restricted to the Great Houses.

Just a few thoughts, that make sense to me

[PGoodman13]

If you've read John M. Ford's The Final Reflection (highly recommended, by the way), there is some information mentioned in there about the founding of lines, which are basically houses in this sense (this is also in the FASA Klingon supplement, since that was mostly written by Mike for FASA). Basically, the route Imagus mentions is the one that this book and the FASA supplement take: If someone thinks they have what it takes to create and maintain a line, then they do so. It might last, it might not. But if it doesn't, it generally means a lot of glory for the potential founder because they usually overcompensate and do something daringly foolish in order to try and buy their line/house legitimacy.

[AslanC]

Originally posted by PGoodman13
If you've read John M. Ford's The Final Reflection (highly recommended, by the way), there is some information mentioned in there about the founding of lines, which are basically houses in this sense (this is also in the FASA Klingon supplement, since that was mostly written by Mike for FASA). Basically, the route Imagus mentions is the one that this book and the FASA supplement take: If someone thinks they have what it takes to create and maintain a line, then they do so. It might last, it might not. But if it doesn't, it generally means a lot of glory for the potential founder because they usually overcompensate and do something daringly foolish in order to try and buy their line/house legitimacy.

Own it, read it 3 or 4 times by now, plus the FASA stuff as well. I love this material.

Here's the rub.

It, in no way (IMHO) can be reconciled with the Samurai-Biker-Viking Klingons of TNG+ (And now Enterprise it would seem). The cunning, backstabbing, political mauevering Klingons of TOS (and JM Ford) seems to be gone.

So working with what is there, I think the High Council would have a lot to say, especially if they are a collection of powerful houses. Would you want mroe competition for the same pieces of pie?

[PGoodman13]

Really, Aslan, I don't see anything that says they have to be mutually exclusive, as you seem to believe. God knows that there's plenty of cunning (witness the Duras sisters and Gowron) and political backstabbing (the whole ascension of Gowron, the intrigue between the House of Duras and the House of Mogh). The way I'm seeing it, and YMMV, they're just wearing a different set of clothes. But everything you seem to be missing is the stuff I'm seeing.

Does the High Council, a body of major Houses, want more competition? Nope, and they're likely the ones to try and make a potential founder take unnecessary risks in order to make him fail at his quest. But do honor and tradition, things even the more duplicitous of the major Houses seem to honor, demand that they allow the potential founder the chance? You damn betcha. And here's where the politics comes in again, since the junior House would need to ally itself with a major House or two in order to survive.

Personally, I think you're making this much more complex than it needs to be.

[AslanC]

Originally posted by PGoodman13
Personally, I think you're making this much more complex than it needs to be.

Explain how

As I see it the John M Ford Klingons are not part of TNG.

They were interesting (my favorites actually) but they have a sinister Nobility that is missing from the TNG rowdies.

So that said and back on topic. I see the houses as being once upon a time something great and any Klingon with enough power, cunning or honor could achieve.

Now in the more Modern world, the 2nd Klingon Empire is much like modern England (or post Modern ) Anyone can call themselves a Lord, but unless the Queen and I guess the House of Lords agree, you are just a guy calling himself a lord.

I could be wrong on how England does it (and I hope someone will point out how it works over there) but that is how I see the modern Klingon.

Also remember one thing, given the lack of On Screen, Canon explanations of this stuff, it is always best to remeber our own diversions are simply our own perceptions.

None of us are right or wrong.

[ghosty]

I loved the Ford material, it was the great source of all Klingon lore until TNG et al turned everything on its head. When Ford wrote his novel in the late 70s or earl 80s he only had a few episodes of TOS and maybe TMP to work from...so he did what he could with the material he had.

Anyhoo, lets see if I can put a fix on it. No flames please as AslanC says since there's little or no canon, its up to you.

It's likely that the Klingon nobility were sinister plotters during the TOS era but that was completely against the Klingon perception of honour but it something they sunk to in an effort to build and Empire and destroy the UFP.

After the Khitomer Conference and peace with the Federation, the Klingons underwent a period of introspection and the Empire was swept by a wave of "traditionalism" to throw away the "evils" of dirty politics and a return to the Klingon Way. Some of the politics remained (the Duras among them) but by and large they have distanced themselves from their "evil" past.

I mean even at the worst in TOS they was a certain nobility to the Klingons. The infamous three of Kor, Kang and Koloth seemed to have shown some redeeming qualities when they first appeared. Maybe its my perception coloured by their return in DS9 but what the hey...we all have our little fantasies otherwise why are we roleplayers?

I know this is off topic...sorry Aslan but it had to be said.

Getting back on topic.

On the issue of House names, I think I've made my thoughts clear above so I won't repeat myself.

On the issue of creating houses, given that Klingon tradition seems to suggest that might is right, it could well be that the way you create a House is to stand before the Council and declare you are creating a House and naming your followers and then challenge anyone to deny your right. If you survive the trial of combat, you've got yourself a house.

So with a bit of luck, honour and pure chutzpah, you can become the leader of a house, now staying there is another matter. The great houses may not appreciate having to share power particularly if this upstart house begins to attract their warriors and vassals away with promises of greater honour and glory in the building of a new house.