Star Wars Continuity

[Weyoun11]

This is strange. Normally in these forums I'd likely question Voyagers logic of continuity but now in the Star Wars Episode II "high" I'll comment on my first sci-fi fascination. Overall despite the "hokey" bits AOTC is an okay movie and much improved over "The Phantom Menace".
The problem I find though with Lucas' obsession with tying everything in for the classic trilogy is where certain details will contradict themselves later. Unless he explains some things in the final Episode III prequel certain details the audience are aware of now won't make a lot of sense when we watch the films sequentially;

1. C-3PO is built by Anakin Skywalker, Luke's father and goes with Shmi to work on Lars moisture farm. By Episode IV: A New Hope C-3PO quite obviously has no idea about Tatooine, his "maker" the former Skywalker, that he worked with Owen Lars, or moisture vaporators that well and much less about his maker's Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi when R2-D2 sets off looking for him.

2. In Episode IV Owen Lars buys C-3PO and even his sidekick R2-D2 but seems to have a memory gap
about the both of them being on his farm when Shmi is buried and R2D2 delivers a message from Obi-Wan Kenobi in Episode II. If R2-D2 is understandbly unrecognizable C-3PO should not have been. Lars must have seen many "C-3PO"s come by via the Jawas.

3. R2-D2 has no memory of Anakin Skywalker in Episode IV either. R2-D2 does claim to be owned by Obi-Wan Kenobi. In AOTC R2-D2 is equipped with repulsorlift rockets which are never used in the classic trilogy. When R2-D2 jumped Jabbas barge in ROTJ they would have come in handy. The thing is despite the problems with the droids if Lucas makes mention their memories are to be erased it would explain the obvious questions that arise otherwise. Also other owners/masters of the droids could have uninstalled parts like R2's jets from Episode II. As to whether Obi-Wan will plant a mind trick on Owen to forget about C-3PO who knows we'll see.

4. Obi-Wan claims that he never owned a droid nor recognizes R2-D2. In Episode II he has a starfighter and an astromech droid and knows R2. Will Yoda mind trick Obi-Wan in Episode III? Obi Wan also has that "truth from a certain point of view" twist about Luke's father (although it is hinted at when Obi-Wan looks at both Luke and Vader when he forfeits to his former pedawan on the Death Star) but Kenobi also mentions that Luke's dad was not only a Jedi but "the best starfighter pilot in the galaxy" so far Anakin piloted a "starfighter" once, only by sheer luck too, on one mission when he was a 10 year old destroying a Trade Federation battleship. Seems like folklore or galactic history is not taught much in the Empire era or certainly not on Tatooine or else Luke wouldn't have to ask about his flukely dad from a "crazy desert hermit". Also Obi-Wan was the pedawan of Qui-Gon Jinn not Yoda as was hinted in the dialogue of Empire Strikes Back...."the Jedi Master who instructed me" but thats a minor nitpick.

5. Vader does not recognize C-3PO or his familiar rantings on Chewies back in the carbon freeze chamber in ESB. Nor that Leia Organa might be force sensitive in the Death Star's detention block interrogation and may resemble his old wife Padme to ask her who her real mother is. He'd certainly clue in as to the possibilty he was daddy. Maybe Admiral Motti was right about Vader not having "clairvoyance enough".

6. Some speculation is Padme Amidala dies in Episode III. That would contradict Leia's memory to Luke in ROTJ. Luke asks if she knew their mother, their real mother which Leia replies that she remembered she was very beautiful but always very sad so it seems likely Padme goes with Leia to Alderaan with Senator Bail Organa. It seems the explaination in ROTJ is Luke gets seperated from his biological mother to protect his discovery from the "dark side" of the force. Obi-Wan chooses Anakins step-bother to care for Luke on Tatooine and lives there himself.

I certainly wouldn't want to be Lucas. He's gonna need the Force alright.

[Sawyer II]

My thoughts, supported and added to by my wife, is that Yes, the droids were "mind-wiped".

Also, between Annikin the kid and Darth Vader the adult, how many model C-3PO and R2-D2's could be created? After all, look how fast Star Trek ship numbers have increased.

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Weyoun11


1. C-3PO is built by Anakin Skywalker, Luke's father and goes with Shmi to work on Lars moisture farm. By Episode IV: A New Hope C-3PO quite obviously has no idea about Tatooine, his "maker" the former Skywalker, that he worked with Owen Lars, or moisture vaporators that well and much less about his maker's Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi when R2-D2 sets off looking for him.

2. In Episode IV Owen Lars buys C-3PO and even his sidekick R2-D2 but seems to have a memory gap
about the both of them being on his farm when Shmi is buried and R2D2 delivers a message from Obi-Wan Kenobi in Episode II. If R2-D2 is understandbly unrecognizable C-3PO should not have been. Lars must have seen many "C-3PO"s come by via the Jawas.

3. R2-D2 has no memory of Anakin Skywalker in Episode IV either. R2-D2 does claim to be owned by Obi-Wan Kenobi. In AOTC R2-D2 is equipped with repulsorlift rockets which are never used in the classic trilogy. When R2-D2 jumped Jabbas barge in ROTJ they would have come in handy. The thing is despite the problems with the droids if Lucas makes mention their memories are to be erased it would explain the obvious questions that arise otherwise. Also other owners/masters of the droids could have uninstalled parts like R2's jets from Episode II. As to whether Obi-Wan will plant a mind trick on Owen to forget about C-3PO who knows we'll see.

4. Obi-Wan claims that he never owned a droid nor recognizes R2-D2. In Episode II he has a starfighter and an astromech droid and knows R2. Will Yoda mind trick Obi-Wan in Episode III? Obi Wan also has that "truth from a certain point of view" twist about Luke's father (although it is hinted at when Obi-Wan looks at both Luke and Vader when he forfeits to his former pedawan on the Death Star) but Kenobi also mentions that Luke's dad was not only a Jedi but "the best starfighter pilot in the galaxy" so far Anakin piloted a "starfighter" once, only by sheer luck too, on one mission when he was a 10 year old destroying a Trade Federation battleship. Seems like folklore or galactic history is not taught much in the Empire era or certainly not on Tatooine or else Luke wouldn't have to ask about his flukely dad from a "crazy desert hermit". Also Obi-Wan was the pedawan of Qui-Gon Jinn not Yoda as was hinted in the dialogue of Empire Strikes Back...."the Jedi Master who instructed me" but thats a minor nitpick.

5. Vader does not recognize C-3PO or his familiar rantings on Chewies back in the carbon freeze chamber in ESB. Nor that Leia Organa might be force sensitive in the Death Star's detention block interrogation and may resemble his old wife Padme to ask her who her real mother is. He'd certainly clue in as to the possibilty he was daddy. Maybe Admiral Motti was right about Vader not having "clairvoyance enough".

6. Some speculation is Padme Amidala dies in Episode III. That would contradict Leia's memory to Luke in ROTJ. Luke asks if she knew their mother, their real mother which Leia replies that she remembered she was very beautiful but always very sad so it seems likely Padme goes with Leia to Alderaan with Senator Bail Organa. It seems the explaination in ROTJ is Luke gets seperated from his biological mother to protect his discovery from the "dark side" of the force. Obi-Wan chooses Anakins step-bother to care for Luke on Tatooine and lives there himself.

Ok, for what it is worth this is my take on your questions;

1) As was stated in ANH when a droid is bought and sold it usually has its memory erased. Obviously both C-3PO and R2 have been sold at least once. So, they wouldn't have any memory of what happened in the prequels.

2) One protocol and astromech droid pretty much looks like another. Droids are pretty much second class "citizens" in the SW universe, I don't think many people pay that much attention.

3)Well, he did say "Come here my little friend." But that could be construed as a generality I suppose. As to the rockets, remember he had to push 3PO off the barge, so he probably won't be able to use the jets.

4) Yoda instructs, going by unoffical game info, lightsber combat and other Jedi disciplines, Jin was Obi-Wan's mentor.

5) I don't think Vader really cared. AS to Leia's being force sensitive and Vader not detecting it...Maybe it hadn't manisfested itself to point where it could be blatantly detected. A reach I know, I never really thought about it.

6) Depends how far into the future the next movie goes. When you think about it Ep III will have a lot to cover. TPM was about 50 years in the past, EpII was 10 years after the end of TPM, so they have to cover about another 30 years between Ep III and ANH.

Anyway for the most part that is how I explain the continutiy hiccups to myself.

[qerlin]

And as for the humans...look at the attitude of Kenobi in 2: 'if droids could think, we wouldn't be here...' Essentially, I think Kenobi and the others just view them as tools, so they don't remember them. Do you remember every TV you every had?

[Phantom]

Originally posted by qerlin
And as for the humans...look at the attitude of Kenobi in 2: 'if droids could think, we wouldn't be here...' Essentially, I think Kenobi and the others just view them as tools, so they don't remember them. Do you remember every TV you every had?

BINGO!

[Weyoun11]

LMAO! Actually my TVs never walked about in a humanoid fashion or engaged in conversations with me nor did I refer to it as a "he". Although in the context of the SW universe I suppose they do take androids for granted as tools. Good points.

[Balok]

Originally posted by Weyoun11
5. Vader does not recognize C-3PO or his familiar rantings on Chewies back in the carbon freeze chamber in ESB. Nor that Leia Organa might be force sensitive in the Death Star's detention block interrogation and may resemble his old wife Padme to ask her who her real mother is. He'd certainly clue in as to the possibilty he was daddy. Maybe Admiral Motti was right about Vader not having "clairvoyance enough".

Anakin battles Obi-Wan at some point, and is seriously injured. So seriously, that he must wear life-support for the rest of his life. The few times we see his head, there are scars. In addition, oxygen deprivation (a consequence of burned lungs) can cause brain damage. Finally, there's no telling what kinds of things Palpatine has done to him over the years. For all these reasons, it's possible Vader only remembers his Anakin years in general terms. It might be that he knows Luke is his son only through the Force, and doesn't actually remember much about those days.

[ghosty]

Originally posted by Weyoun11
1. C-3PO is built by Anakin Skywalker, Luke's father and goes with Shmi to work on Lars moisture farm. By Episode IV: A New Hope C-3PO quite obviously has no idea about Tatooine, his "maker" the former Skywalker, that he worked with Owen Lars, or moisture vaporators that well and much less about his maker's Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi when R2-D2 sets off looking for him.

Mind-wipe - that's the only explanation. I believe GL alludes to it during a recent interview. Personally I don't think R2 was not mind-wiped - he knew more than he was telling. C-3P0 on the other hand had a motor mouth, so he was mind-wiped.

2. In Episode IV Owen Lars buys C-3PO and even his sidekick R2-D2 but seems to have a memory gap
about the both of them being on his farm when Shmi is buried and R2D2 delivers a message from Obi-Wan Kenobi in Episode II. If R2-D2 is understandbly unrecognizable C-3PO should not have been. Lars must have seen many "C-3PO"s come by via the Jawas.

Oh Owen knew. He was protecting Luke. Hence his instructions to have them mind-wiped. He didn't want Luke to get involved with the Obi-Wan and run off on some damned fool crusade.

3. R2-D2 has no memory of Anakin Skywalker in Episode IV either. R2-D2 does claim to be owned by Obi-Wan Kenobi. In AOTC R2-D2 is equipped with repulsorlift rockets which are never used in the classic trilogy. When R2-D2 jumped Jabbas barge in ROTJ they would have come in handy. The thing is despite the problems with the droids if Lucas makes mention their memories are to be erased it would explain the obvious questions that arise otherwise. Also other owners/masters of the droids could have uninstalled parts like R2's jets from Episode II. As to whether Obi-Wan will plant a mind trick on Owen to forget about C-3PO who knows we'll see.

Claiming to be owned by Obi-Wan was part of the programming that Princess Leia put into his memory banks. Remember, Leia was on a mission to bring Obi-Wan to Alderaan, probably she was told by her father that if she could not complete the mission, she was to send R2 with a message to bring Obi-Wan to Alderaan etc. As for the lack of the jets, they may have been removed subsequently...who knows...its some 20 years between AOTC and ANH so a lot of changes could have been made in the meantime.

4. Obi-Wan claims that he never owned a droid nor recognizes R2-D2. In Episode II he has a starfighter and an astromech droid and knows R2. Will Yoda mind trick Obi-Wan in Episode III?

Who says the droid belonged to Obi-Wan. The fighter and the R2 unit may actually belong to the Jedi Council and was loaned to Obi-Wan for his mission to track down Jango Fett.

Obi Wan also has that "truth from a certain point of view" twist about Luke's father (although it is hinted at when Obi-Wan looks at both Luke and Vader when he forfeits to his former pedawan on the Death Star) but Kenobi also mentions that Luke's dad was not only a Jedi but "the best starfighter pilot in the galaxy" so far Anakin piloted a "starfighter" once, only by sheer luck too, on one mission when he was a 10 year old destroying a Trade Federation battleship. Seems like folklore or galactic history is not taught much in the Empire era or certainly not on Tatooine or else Luke wouldn't have to ask about his flukely dad from a "crazy desert hermit".

We have no knowledge of Anakin's activities during the Clone Wars. Remember, by marrying Padme he effectively resigns from the Jedi Knights...so he probably became a fighter pilot and flew combat during the Clone Wars. Further, I remember that Red Leader said something about knowing Luke's father as being a great pilot in the hanger scence in ANH so its not just Obi-Wan's "senile" memories.

Also Obi-Wan was the pedawan of Qui-Gon Jinn not Yoda as was hinted in the dialogue of Empire Strikes Back...."the Jedi Master who instructed me" but thats a minor nitpick.

On-screen evidence suggests that Yoda was responsible for training the younger Jedi recruits. Probably when they reach a certain age, 10 or so, they are selected for "field training" with an experienced Jedi like Qui-Gon Jinn who will test them in "field" conditions to see if they are ready to become fully fledged Jedi Knights. So Yoda could have trained Obi-Wan in his younger years until he was old enough for field training where he was assigned to Qui-Gon Jinn. I think the fluff text in the SW RPG can confirm this.

5. Vader does not recognize C-3PO or his familiar rantings on Chewies back in the carbon freeze chamber in ESB.

Who's to say he didn't but merely didn't express it. Remember he's a cold hearted souless killer at this stage and may not give two hoots about his early life as Anakin Skywalker. In ROTJ Ben said something about he was no longer Anakin Skywalker but Darth Vader. WHen he assumed the mantle, Vader became a new person and wanted to forget his old self.

Nor that Leia Organa might be force sensitive in the Death Star's detention block interrogation and may resemble his old wife Padme to ask her who her real mother is. He'd certainly clue in as to the possibilty he was daddy. Maybe Admiral Motti was right about Vader not having "clairvoyance enough".

As mentioned above, Vader has renounced his old life and who says the Force is omnipotent...neither the Emperor or Vader could find Yoda's hiding place even though he was probably the greatest threat to their existence and they knew exactly what Yoda's "force signature" looks like. He probably detected Leia had some potential in the Force but nothing spectacular at this stage. Remember he didn't detect Luke until the Battle of Yavin and by that time Luke had already received some training from Ben and was focusing his powers. For all you know, Vader detected the presence of Ben watching over Luke and only then did he see the Force potential in Luke.

[Diamond]

>Mind-wipe - that's the only explanation. I believe GL alludes to it during a recent interview

Yes, GL says something along the lines of, "the apparent inconsistencies in the droid's memories are really a insignificant point, which will be clearly explained." This strongly hints to me that it's going to be a plain and regular mind-wipe. Although I agree that R2D2 might not be wiped, but just cagey.

As for Vader detecting Leia's force-capability during her time in detention, I think you are seriously underestimating how hard it is to detect that someone is strong in the force. In Episode I, Gai-Quon Jinn only suspects Annakin's force capability by hearing about Annakin's great reflexes in podracing. Gai-Quon has to use a mechanical sensor to confirm his suspiscion. Later, Vader only detects Luke is strong in the force because he dodges a blast that should have destroyed his starfighter. Vader SEES the force in action, he doesn't mystically sense it. So with Leia not overtly displaying force powers, it's easy to see Vader missing that fact until later.

[Shoshuro]

the question also comes into being does Vader really care to tell anyone about leia? The jedi are dead, there were probably dozens of people walking around who could use the force, but with no Jedi around to teach them it becomes moot. And since Leia probably never put much thought into doing it she probably hid it from herself...remember her comment to luke..."you have powers I could never have or understand" (or close to it). To her it was just something others had not her.

AS for the droids, I'd have to say there were wiped a number of times. I can see Anakin giving 3PO to Amadalia as a wedding present (he's a jedi, what use does he really have for a protocol droid? A senetor would have more use of one). Both of the droids being wiped when Amadalia goes to live on Alderaan, don't want baby leia to discover her true origin, and 3PO IS a blabermouth. And the droids didn't claim to be owned by Leia, 3PO said their last owner was Capt. Antellies(sp) (presumably the Capt of the ship @ the start of New Hope).

[Weyoun11]

Originally posted by Diamond
[B] Vader SEES the force in action, he doesn't mystically sense it. /B]

"I sense something. A presense I've not felt since....."

"Obi-Wan is here. The Force is with him."

That wasn't the case with his old mentor... Vader "sensed" his presence on the Death Star even after a 20 year gap (Episode III-Episode IV). Perhaps the point your making and others is that initially a Jedi/Sith have to see a potential Force sensitive subject in action before they sense the potential. Like Qui-Gon Jinn observations in Episode I.

Lt. Ghostly mentioned he remembered Red Leader in a ANH having memories of Anakin being a superb pilot. I'm almost certain the movie dialogue does not have it (even in the special edition, I just remember Biggs vouching that he could fly an X-wing cause Luke was the best pilot in the Outer Rim) but I can't say about the novelizations or the radio dramas. My arguement was Anakin Skywalker and his exploits at Naboo (heck a 10 year old that takes out a Battleship...that usually gets you galactic recognition if not a manuever coined after your name)and Geonosis (very near to Tatooine btw) should have been known even to one of Luke's academy driven childhood buddies even years later. Luke may have known his father was from Tatooine and a podracing champion as nothing in ANH contradicts that all he does say is that, " I wish I'd known him", and Uncle Owen told him he was a spice navigator during the Clone Wars. Either Darth Sidious or Uncle Owen were damn good controlling the holonet archives for anyone Luke ever associated with for things that he did not know but easily could have from sources apart of his tight-lipped Uncle. Yeah I know, overanalyzing. Hee hee ho hum meditate to often on this do I. Reckless am I.
:P

[Robbert Raets]

Originally posted by ghosty
Who's to say he didn't but merely didn't express it. Remember he's a cold hearted souless killer at this stage and may not give two hoots about his early life as Anakin Skywalker. In ROTJ Ben said something about he was no longer Anakin Skywalker but Darth Vader. WHen he assumed the mantle, Vader became a new person and wanted to forget his old self.

In fact, Vader tells Luke "That name means nothing to me"


And qerlin; yes, I do remember every TV I/my parents ever had.

[spyone]

Originally posted by Phantom


5) I don't think Vader really cared. AS to Leia's being force sensitive and Vader not detecting it...Maybe it hadn't manisfested itself to point where it could be blatantly detected. A reach I know, I never really thought about it.

Not as big a reach as you might think. So far, everyone who has been detected by someone who wasn't specificly looking to measure "strength with the force" has had some training, or at least some experience with using the force.

A related note: a friend asked me how Palpatine could possably pass unnoticed by the Jedi Council. My best no-prize is that Force users can disguise themselves. This is why Vader did not detect Ben from orbit over Tattooine. Ben was hiding.

IMO, Yoda chose to live on Dagobah NOT because it was his planet of origin (as some have said), but because it had no settlements, and was teeming with life. It would help Yoda hide if he had no contact with the outside and had a lot of bacground noise to blend into.

[spyone]

Originally posted by Weyoun11

5. Vader does not recognize C-3PO or his familiar rantings on Chewies back in the carbon freeze chamber in ESB.

We saw a droid that looked just like C3PO in Episode 1, and I could swear we saw one in Episode IV as well.
It simply never occurred to Vader that it might be the same one.

[spyone]

Originally posted by Robbert Raets
And qerlin; yes, I do remember every TV I/my parents ever had.

I remember a story I have read where a man takes a journey to a mystical place. The place is called "Where That Which You Have Loved Can Save You". There he finds all manner of things he has loved, like his favorite sneakers ever.
In the end, he is saved by a car his parents owned when he was small.
R2 does seem like a memorable appliance.