Weapon Mastery Edge

[Polanski]

Greetings,

Just quickly, weapon mastery edge allows you to select a particular weapon in which you are a master.

However it states nothing about such selected weapon
being ... your fist, hence weapon mastery unarmed combat.

Now I know that there is another edge called Martial Artist, but that just deals with extra attack feature.

What would you say about allowing a player to select weapon mastery unarmed combat and allow the bonuses related to it.

Regards

[Don Mappin]

I wouldn't allow it as Weapon Mastery relies on using a weapon as an extension of the character's training. Martial Artist (as you noted) exists for those attempting to master unarmed combat.

So, no. With that said, it's your game...

[Lancer]

While it's not in the rules I see nothing wrong with Weapon Mastery for Unarmed Combat.

If you allow the edge for unarmed combat in your game you might want to consider a few changes to the Weapon Master EP as well. Like changing the prerequisites to "Armed Combat 4+, Unarmed Combat 3+ OR Unarmed 4+, Armed 3+".

Then of course you might have to make some small changes to the professional abilities of the Weapon Master as well, especially to the one that deals with repairing weapons. An ability that gives a bonus to First Aid might be a good choice.

[Polanski]

Here is a scenario that I would like you guys to look at, as you
will notice the cost of the below skills and edges in both character
A and B are the same and yet the results in combat are much different.
This example does not even take under the consideration the fact that
a weapon in the hand of Player A would get automatic +3 to blocks.

Character A:

* 5 skill points in armed combat (simple weapons)
* Weapon Mastery (selected simple weapon) Edge
* Agility Modifier +1

Character B:

* 5 Skill points in unarmed combat (selected marial arts form)
* Marial Artist Edge
* Agility Modifier +1

Assumption 2d6 test results in average of 7.
Formula = action penalty+skill+edge modifier+agility modifier

A:
1) 0+5+3+2d6+1= 16
2) 0+5+3+2d6+1= 16
3) -5+5+3+2d6+1= 11
4) -10+5+3+2d6+1= 6

B:
1) 0+5+0+2d6+1= 13
2) 0+5+0+2d6+1= 13
3) -5+5+3+2d6+1= 11
4) -10+5+0+2d6+1= 3

This kind of sucks for characters who are not interested in carrying
sharp implements, which in turn suggests that StarFleet personnel who
by nature is 'less violent' and does not carry blades or similar
weapons will always be outmatched by the enemy.

Of course a weapon master as skillful as unarmed master would probably
have an about equal chances in combat, while in the above example the
results are not so close and thats even before the damage is applied.
We all know that a knife or a simple staff will outperform
1d3+Strength modifier of unarmed combat.

Any insides?

[Don Mappin]

So your complaint is that people fighting unarmed are at a disadvantage against a combatant that is armed?

To that, I have to say: duh!

Even then, the difference is minor. Why on earth should someone with a sword or knife be on equal terms with someone who is unarmed when both have equal levels of skill/proficiency?

This is rapidly heading in a circular argument. Obviously you feel there is a deficiency, otherwise you wouldn’t have brought it up. If you don’t agree with the rules, as they stand, then clearly you need to modify them to suit your needs.

Weapon Mastery requires you to select a “weapon.” My dictionary says that a weapon is “any instrument or device used for attack or defense in a fight or in combat.” A fist, knee, or kick doesn’t meet the criteria in my mind of being either an “instrument or device.”

If the Martial Artist edge didn’t exist, that’d lend some weight to your argument. But, even with natural aptitude and exceptional skill (via the edge), someone unarmed who enters a knife fight should expect to get banged up. (And even then, as your numbers show, it isn’t a foregone conclusion that they’d lose anyway.)

Out of curiosity, are you the Narrator for the game that this is popping up in?

[Polanski]

Don,

I agree with you on a number of statements, of course anyone who is unarmed and enters a combat with a knife armed person of equal skill is bound to loose and I would say that the damage rolls for knife/sword represent that very well, but that refers to the damage rolls.

Essencially it is my believe that the edge of martial artist is underpowered comparing with weapon master.

Saying that I am not being critical nor I am giving you a hard time, I think that the designers done a good job on CODA rules and as an experienced GM I was simply comparing the combat systems.

You will notice that in D20 and even the ICON the armed and unarmed combat have about equal chance of scoring the hit, while the damage was what surely separates them. Same like throwing rock and throwing a thermal detonator situation.

I was simply hoping for people insides into this one, I was not expecting someone to give me a 'permission' to modify the rules.

To answer your final question I am a Narrator for a group of 7 players, currently running a long term campaign. We have played the first season using ICON system and are simply learning and testing the CODA system before we go to Warp.

Regards

[Don Mappin]

Originally posted by Polanski
I was simply hoping for people insides into this one, I was not expecting someone to give me a 'permission' to modify the rules.

I wrote 300 words that were less than kind responding to your last post. Instead of posting them I’m just going to say that I don’t appreciate your giving me crap about “permission” to change the rules and leave it at that.

Best of luck and regards,

[Polanski]

Look, my honest apology if you feel ofended.

It certainy was not intendeed to be,
Perhaps I got carried a little bit with that permissions 'crap'
I simply wanted to discuss the rule.

Once again I am sorry Don ... peace?

[Champions Guru]

If the police can consider a person with martial arts training to be a deadly weapon, why can't a player in a fictional setting be the same way?

Many fighting styles teach how to fight unarmed against an armed opponent and to even cause critical wounds on an opponent. I think this would be considered to be a special form of a weapon and the Weapon Mastery edge would be bought to show some extra training in the martial art to be able to gain these bonuses.

I also believe that if you do allow a player to use Weapon Mastery with unarmed combat that you also allow someone to use the Martial Artist edge with a weapon taught in that style.

Just my 2 cents worth YMMV,

Da Guru

[Polanski]

What about simply removing Martial Artist Edge and making Weapon Mastery available for all?

Still this does create one small problem, a fact that you will be always able to use the advantage given by the Edge because you do not leave home without your fists and you can never be disarmed from them.

However its not like 1d3+Strength Modifier can stand up to the Weapon Mastery Phaser that could be used on setting 16, and hands/legs when used as the weapon are somewhat useless when trying to block a strike with the longsword.

Assuming you would give +3 to all tests as the Weapon Mastery says, you would need to warn a player if he/she is trying to block the strike with the sword using unarmed combat and apply some negatives as you cannot block the blade and you need to be going for the arm that holds the weapon.

There used to be a set of negatives to block actions against a specific weapons in ICON system are there similar numbers available in CODA?

Would that create a balance problems in the combat system?

Regards