Must the canon characters be stronger than the PCs?

[KillerWhale]

Hi all,

Browsing the Spock mixed species thread has revived some old question I keep wondering in my games and I'd greatly like to discuss it with fellow narrators.

I'm wondering about the canon characters capabilities versus the PCs. It's inevitable the players compare their characters to the canon ones ("I'm sure I'm a better tactician than Worf!"). And I'm wondering where to place them, because since we played for a loooong time, two of my players have very competent -and renowned- characters.

So what do you do in your campaigns? Are canon characters an unattainable ideal (so as to avoid high-power campaigns where nothing makes sense any longer) or do you just follow the rules and decide that if the PCs get stronger, then so be it (which I plan on doing)?

On a side note: in the NG, I ruled that the canon characters skills do not include the atttribute modifiers, but that it's just the skill levels. If you take the best bat'leth wielder in the quadrant, Worf, he is listed as having +10. If the modifier is already in, that makes only 8 levels - not much for me for Klingon traditional weapons, according to his level of expertise. I think it's more like he has 10 +2 +2 (specialty) = 14 when he uses the bat'leth. Unbeatable in duels - and that's what he is.

[toadkiller]

In my opinion the PC's are simply different - which takes some effort I admit.

I play a very story-telling intense, game mechanic low, game. We have a few multi-year (game and real life) Captains that would hold their own with any of the canon ones. However they are as different from the canon ones (and each other) as Kirk is from Picard.

CAPT Barbara Dexter was our first (then NPC) CO. She was the CO of a Galaxy class at the same time as Picard so he's perhaps the best yardstick. In diplomacy she is inferior, but ended up in game play having to struggle in that area during several very important missions (games) which let other players on the ship have a larger role than they would have w/ Picard. Her greatest strength is that she builds cohesive teams of very skilled individuals. Currently 5 of the officers off that ship have moved on to (background) independent commands and 3 others are XO's.

CAPT Brian Douglas: Barb's XO from the game's beginings. A very intense, still fairly young, Captain of a Nebula class ship. A skilled engineer (his family runs a shipyard) he grew up with access to ships, travel, whatever and joined star fleet on a whim really and has become one of its most devoted members. At the same time he is a very independent thinker and has had to be "reigned in" on more than one occasion. Engineering skills far in excess to those of the "canon" captains. Known for non-conventional (usually non-violent) resolutions to tactical situations. Filled an enemy ship with beamed-in jelly beans and ball bearings to disrupt operations when their shields came down (it was 3 AM in RL and it seemed funny at the time). Spent most of his points on inter-personal and enginnering skills.

CAPT Lynn (Wacky) Wu: An Admiral's aide "desk jockey" gone terriblly wrong. Wu is a tacticial wizard (somehow) able to have her ship survive the most pitched of battles. Physical stats and skills reflect her 5 ft 0 stature. Skills - all focused around the ship and crew with a base of administrative skills from her desk bound days. As she didn't get ship duty till she was a Commander there are gaps in her practical knowledge of ship functions. She isn't going to be able to work on the warp core much.


Just some ramblings of Toadkiller....

[C5]

Well personnally, while I think a newly created player can't just compete with any canon character (except of course if he has 50 advancements), I have no problem with an experienced character being on par with some of them. After all, even if the show sometimes states that these people are "the best of StarFleet" (at least for TOS and TNG characters), I consider the universe of my RPG is an alternate to the series one, so no problem if it sprouts a guy who can beat Worf at Bat'leth - it'll just need many years of training.
YMMV, as the saying goes

[KillerWhale]

Thanx Toadkiller and C5 for your insights and experience

I go much along the same lines. It's more rewarding for the players to know they, too, can be the best of Starfleet.

I agree that the PCs are unique; I like yours, toadkiller, that may give me some NPCs ideas Same here, the PCs cannot be (fortunately!!!!) thought in terms of the canon characters.

Just so as to share the PCs of my campaign (as viewed by the narrator, so my dear players, don't come and hit me when you see this message, and don't be influenced - but I know you better than to be influenced ) as well:

CDR Loryk - The only cardassian in Starfleet, that only is worth some renown. Tactical officer, very specialized in his field (understand: lone ranger with some lacking in social skills). Weapon collector, thinks the most important system aboard the ship are the tactical ones; does not hesitate to reroute power from life support to this end. Consequences: already 2 court martials, with one being demoted to ltn JG, but his methods also helped save the Federation from a big crisis.

LCDR Tim Paige - Human hotshot pilot, seductor, spy. Kinda James Bond attitude (with the inherent problems that go along in an organization like SF). Always with Loryk on suicide missions and bold attempts. Was court martialed at exactly the same time (but he, he had three court martials).

You won't be surprised to learn that both have joined Section 31, and asked SF to change from a Galaxy-class starship to a smaller ship (oh joy, it's a prototype with lotsa experimental equipment).

These are two really great characters, that "refresh" a bit the ST universe by their attitude, are most important of all, they are true to what they think is right, rather than regulations and bureaucracy. Lonesome cowboys with good hearts What's even more interesting is that Loryk (a cardassian) follows more the regulations and is more moderated than Paige (the human). Sorts of reverses the archetypes, which is very nice.

The others are a bit less experienced, we still have to see how they develop!

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

While I would never start a group off as powerful as the canon characters, I see no reason why they couldn't advnace to that level, if they are in play long enough. Heck, prior to revamping my campaign in CODA (we decided to remake our characters with minimal advancements, to make things interesting again), the Intrepid crew were as good as Picard's.

[loryk]

i think that the question about being or not better than the series character is not really important. If the GM let his players acts as their idols (it's always desperating to see your GM says no when you want to try an action that a series character have already done).
all characters are different even the series one. Even if it's easy to compare numbers on a character sheet the most important is what use is done of this sheet by the player. I think
I don't want to know if my character is better than tuvok, worf or anyone else (probably ). I think they probably have not the same way to solve the same situation but the important is the pleasure.



thanks killer whale for the description but you forgot one martial court for my dear character.....

[KillerWhale]

I agree completley.

it's always desperating to see your GM says no when you want to try an action that a series character have already done.

Huh? I hope I haven't done that (or only back when you were just fresh from the acadamy and couldn't do much )
Or maybe that's because the conditions were different?

Anyway, roleplaying is all that matters. It's just a question of game balance. Thanks you all for your points of view

thanks killer whale for the description but you forgot one martial court for my dear character.....

True, I hadn't thought about the Entropy/Maquis part. Make that 3 for you and 4 for Paige. (All that in 5 years. Wow )

[loryk]

non non my dear that's wasn't for you but i was thinking in general.
When you are player you are very concentrated in what are doing the character in the series that makes the job of yours in the game and i think GM and players don't see the same things in watching the series. You know the series better than mine but in some other GM, player couple it must be the opposite and it could be problems that's all.

that wasn't for you because you know that i prefer use my own method than tuvok's or worf's....

you always see evil everywhere (you'll make a perfect security officer )

[loryk]

for the court martial it's 3 for paige because i think he wasn't in my first one: remember that was I and fastilas that destroyed the
biovirus factory with photon torpedoes he had other things to do in the same time


but i agree you 3 in 5 years that's a good score

[Ineti]

Originally posted by Capt Daniel Hunter
While I would never start a group off as powerful as the canon characters, I see no reason why they couldn't advnace to that level, if they are in play long enough. Heck, prior to revamping my campaign in CODA (we decided to remake our characters with minimal advancements, to make things interesting again), the Intrepid crew were as good as Picard's.

I agree completely. The crew in my longest-running campaign started off as decent PCs, nothing extraordinary. Over years of game time, they developed into sterling Starfleet officers every bit as noteworthy as Picard, Sisko, etc.

I would never start a campaign at that high level, though. The characters would have nowhere to go, development-wise.

[Lt.Khrys Antos]

Speaking from experience, starting characters should not be as powerful as cannon characters. Later on though they could rise to the challenge. Many of the characters in our series are great characters.

One of our PC's, Nathan Mcguillan is a Commander on the U.S.S.Andromeda. He's a veteran of the Dominion war, decorated more times than I can remember. Fought in the 2nd Klingon civil war and was in Voyager-like situation for two years. His skills and experiences, along with the friends and enemies he's made have made his a character on par with Spock and Riker. A famous 2nd in command who doesn't want to be in charge.

[Silverthorne]

I cannot say that my players from the only Star Trek game I ran that had any length of time, were pristine.. A small group of terrorists were making an asteroid into a base by mining out the inside and equipping it with weapons.. they were building the internal components in a underground base. They had a fully funtioning main phaser array from a Constitution class ship (we were playing fasa) built and were getting ready to use test fire it at the ship that the pc's were using. the PC's used their phaser array to blow up the power center on the base to shut down the anti beam shield. the problem was it was a nuclear reactor. they beamed out and watched the planet expode.. oops..