For the UK/European Folks - Primarily...

[Dan Gurden]

No real reason for this... But to guage opinion amongst us UK folk, and to gain experience from those in the know. Please feel free to share views opposing or agreeing... Or even just vent your spleen.

Simple rule. Your opinion is sacred. I dont want any of us taking offence at other peoples views...

Single Currency
I have got to say, that I am strongly feeling that it is past time the UK stopped sitting on the fence on this issue. Either join or dont. But to hang on any longer is going to cause us harm economically. My personal opinion is that we should get off our collective butts and join before its too late. Sure it would be nice to keep the pound, but for sheer convenience I think the Euro is the way to go. I dont think it would devalue our culture, more-likely it would enrich it. I would like the abiliyt to wake up in the morning and jump on a tarain or plane to anywhere in europe and carry on my day just as I would elsewhere, without having to wait to change currency. As the comedian Denis Leary said 'Because I might just wanna do it.'

To be honest, our reluctance to drop the pound is an archaic tradition that simply does not fit with the modern world. In an age where money is increasingly electrical and actual cash loosing its effectiveness vs the convenience of a piece of plastic, the switch to Euro would be harmless. Far less so than now. Right now (as of last weekend), we go to Europe and pay with a credit card, and STILL have to pay a currency conversion rate thus effectively paying more than anyone else with Euro as their currency. Nice way to screw us Blair.

It wouldn't be so bad if Euro was considered a valid currency alongside the pound. And dont tell me that a good conversion rate cannot be achieved or matched daily. Here at IBM we deal in EURO, Pounds and Dollars, as a matter of course, and to make things easier we keep the same standard conversion rate for Euro's and US Dollars, oddly, the same rate for both currencys. So somedays you make money on the bank conversions, some days you dont. Have a till linked toa computer and you can charge up to the moment prices... OK, it expensive, but the tech and the capabilities are already there. So why havn't we taken them?

ID Cards
OK, heres a beef. Everytime I see this one come up, there are usually 2 sides. The 'Not Bothered' and the 'Paranoid Conspiracy Nuts'. I fall firmly into the first camp. I can see how they can be a good thing,, and how they can be abused (hell, as a Cyberpunk GM I used and abused them in game myself). However I feel that it is time to re-evaluate the situation. What the 'no ID card' arguement regularly fails to take into account is that they are already here.

Your work security pass, bank card, new driving licence (with photo ID after all these years), your National Insurance card, Passport... they are all ID's, and all could easily be compaitable into a new ID card. In addition, they could be combined with health information and even other voluntary cards such as organ doners cards (maybe even store cards?). In a age where there is so much plastic in a wallet that much of it is left in a drawer for comfort purposes (I am regularly carring about 20 credit card sized peices of plastic).. Why not make it easy on ourselve. Even if a national ID only covers 1/3 of what I mention above, then it will be a job done, making it a useful tool rather than a paranoids nightmare.

But first, lets set up some safeguards to reduce the risk of abuse of the system.


Next?

[KillerWhale]

To be honest, our reluctance to drop the pound is an archaic tradition that simply does not fit with the modern world.

Amen to that. Being not English, I wouldn't have dared to say so myself, but I deeply agree... Living in France, hence part of the Euro zone, tourism and trade has never been easier.

But first, lets set up some safeguards to reduce the risk of abuse of the system.

What buggers me is, if you offer control power to a government, it'll always use it.

I'm not sure the abuse can be reduced. Look at the Echelon programs and such. Let's make things more difficult for the citizens to be traced, because eventually all are. So at least, let's make this tough...

[Calcoran]

Single Currency:
As a matter of fact, I think it'd be good for both Europe and the UK if the UK indeed agreed to switch to Euro. I mean, countries as proud of their currency as Germany with its holy Deutschmark and France with its much regreted Franc have accepted to let go of it in favour of the Euro, why couldn't the UK?
The funny thing in that is that we've been using the Euro here for almost 6 months now, and a recent survey showed that more than 80% of the French people is still thinking in Franc, paying in Euro. Looks like the habit is hard to shake . I too find myself unable to cope with prices if they're not divisible by 1.5, 15, or 150 (resp. 10, 100 and 1000 francs) . Now, we feel as if we were living in a foreign country ... the good point is that we're all equal in this feeling: A German coming to Paris has just as much difficulty evaluating the real value of what he's buying as the French guy who lives there (all right, the real good point is that he'll be able to pay with his own bills, not some bills he'd have had to pay a hefty conversion fee for).
Now don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of the Euro, it's just that it may be a while before we get accustomed to it ... a while longer than foreseen, at that.

ID Cards:
I'm not sure I got that one ... you don't have national ID cards in the UK?

[Dan Gurden]

Originally posted by Calcoran
ID Cards:
I'm not sure I got that one ... you don't have national ID cards in the UK?

No we do not have a national ID card, and every time the government brings up the idea, they always focus on what the card is protecting us against (eg Crime and terrorism) and then the 'Paranoids' (my term) come on and tell you how it will remove your freedom. Whether you've done anything wrong or not.

A big sign of the influence of America on the UK...

[Calcoran]

ID Cards:
Well, we do have one in France ... I'm not sure what it's good for however .
I mean, law wants us to carry it around with us (AFAIR, there is a heavy fine if you forget it) ... well, that, or our passport. Some time ago, it wasn't even free (about 20 Euros). Now it is. Still, it's not exactly credit-card sized (it's a bit bigger), and doesn't feature any SIM card. It does not carry any information apart from what it say it does: your ID. Thus, it doesn't help you much in reducing your wallet's size (we also have a credit card sized national health insurance card ... which does not always work ... a driver's license ... well and everything else of course).
I guess it does, however, help policemen find illegal immigrants, criminals, and the like.

[Cmmdr JT Wayland]

Single Currency , at best it is still way too early to join, we should wait at least five more years to see if it works or not, preferably at least ten years. But, personally I DO NOT want the UK to scrap the Pound and to adopt a politically correct, badly conceived and badly implemented currency.

The Germans already want to scrap the euro due to the massive inflation it has already caused and the Irish are suffering due to the high cost of basic foodstuffs. There is no way in hell that the ECB can manage a currency on behalf of twelve or more economically diverse countries in the long term.

The supposed economic advantages of Britain adopting the euro are far, far outweighed by the practical disadvantages. It makes more economic sense for Britain to retain the Pound, especially as this Country is still a major GLOBAL power, much to the disgust of the Extreme Left and the Europhiles in this Country.

The only way this Country is to prosper is to look to the world outside of Europe, and not get trapped in a reborn Holy Roman Empire. [Extreme Shudder, HRE was by nature, by modern standards an extremely evil and repressive regime.] Europe should learn from the mistakes of the past and not to try create a rigid federal state like the US and the ols Soviet Union, instead it should be creating a very Loose Confederacy, personally I feel that the EU should be scrapped and a much reformed NATO should take over some of its responsibilities and the rest of its present powers returned back to the nation states and their citizens.

I.D. Cards We abandoned ID Cards back in the 1950's with the end of other wartime emergency measures such as rationing. At the moment both the Civil Liberties Movement (dominated by the Extreme Left) and the Libretarian Wing of the Conservative party regard the Compulsory introduction of ID Cards as a gross violation of our Traditional Legal and Human Rights. Personally, I can see the sense of having a multipurpose smart card, but I would only carry if it was an option, not compulsary.

[Calcoran]

at best it is still way too early to join, we should wait at least five more years to see if it works or not, preferably at least ten years

And then it'll be too late?
Frankly, I can't see how this could "not work". Mind you, the examples you give show that the shift should not be taken lightly. But basically, why should basic foodstuff be more expensive when paid with Euros? Because shopkeepers and stores and companies think a few more eurocent will both help their cash flow and the customers by presenting an easily undertsandable price maybe? Well, maybe someone should tell them they're wrong. I mean, the US manages to survice with US$ , and basically, 1 US$ and 1 Euro are grossly equivalent, aren't they?

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

Well I'm in the UK, and while I'm undecided on the ID card thing, I totally agree on the single currency. And the xenophobes i nthe UK, who hate anything 'European' can eat my shorts

[Joe Dizzy]

Originally posted by Cmmdr JT Wayland

The Germans already want to scrap the euro due to the massive inflation it has already caused (snip)

Oh really? Sure is news to me.

No offense, but maybe your source of information isn't as objective or comprehensive as it claims.

[KillerWhale]

The Germans already want to scrap the euro due to the massive inflation it has already caused (snip)

Never heard of that. I heard they were pretty satisfied, on the contrary.

I DO NOT want the UK to scrap the Pound and to adopt a politically correct, badly conceived and badly implemented currency.

Politically correct? Hmm. Doesn't seem politically correct to me. Sounds daring, on the contrary.

As to badly conceived, well I'm no economist so I won't judge. Maybe you are; if so, I'm at a loss, could you elaborate?

as this Country is still a major GLOBAL power

As much as France, Germany or Switzerland.

The real global power now is the US. The only way to be a match is to federate. The best way to federate is a common currency.

instead it should be creating a very Loose Confederacy, personally I feel that the EU should be scrapped and a much reformed NATO

The US are a tight confederacy. So far I think they work fine. Something loose can't hold. We have to be in this together. Those who don't want to, fine; no problem with me. Simply, they won't be part of the greater plan.

The UK cannot be alone a major player in the world economy.
Neither can France.
Neither can Germany.
Neither can Switzerland.

That's why we must UNITE.

But hey, that's my opinion.

[qerlin]

Originally posted by Calcoran
ID Cards:
Well, we do have one in France ... I'm not sure what it's good for however .
I mean, law wants us to carry it around with us (AFAIR, there is a heavy fine if you forget it) ... well, that, or our passport. Some time ago, it wasn't even free (about 20 Euros). Now it is. Still, it's not exactly credit-card sized (it's a bit bigger), and doesn't feature any SIM card. It does not carry any information apart from what it say it does: your ID. Thus, it doesn't help you much in reducing your wallet's size (we also have a credit card sized national health insurance card ... which does not always work ... a driver's license ... well and everything else of course).
I guess it does, however, help policemen find illegal immigrants, criminals, and the like.

Like my mum used to say, "Always carry you papers..." There's way too much chance for abuse of an ID card with your entire life on it. Especially if stolen (you should see the hoops you have to jump through if you lose your driver's licence AND social security card at the same time here...you practically don't exist.

The EURO: as an American traveling in Europe, it's not bad having one currency. As a former Brit, I have to point out the pound still remains one of the most stable and strong currencies in the world. The Euro really isn't that big a deal...the same people are still making big money, and most aren't.

The Federation of Europe...I'd been careful, guys. The tendency for governments is to keep grabbing power and money from its citizens. Something in the European administration smacks of power-hunger at it's worst -- maybe it's the histrionics the governments that are pushing the single currency have when a country votes no on anything: Britain and Denmark on the Euro, Ireland on (crap! escapes me right now!). The immediate response is "They don't understand how important this is! We must indocrinate...I mean teach...them the error of their thinking!"

I've found most people can spot when some scheme is bad for them. Maybe the average guy on the street is seeing/smelling something amiss. The government pushing them just makes them more suspicious.

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

Originally posted by KillerWhale


The UK cannot be alone a major player in the world economy.
Neither can France.
Neither can Germany.
Neither can Switzerland.

That's why we must UNITE.

But hey, that's my opinion.

I couldn't agree more. Sadly there are still an awful lot of xenophobic, overly nationalistic people out there.

Unity does not mean surrendering your identity, regardless of how much the nationalists would have you believe it does. Scotland has been part of the United Kingdom for centuries, without surrendering their identity (despite the best historical efforts of the English). People need to stop thinking of other countries as 'foreigners' and start thinking of them as fellow human beings. And there's a lesson in their for all of us, not just the extremist nuts in Middle East and elsewhere.

[Cdr Scot II]

Speaking for the Irish experience, and as a Brit ex-pat living there, the Euro changeover process could best be described as a qualified success. People here switched to using the Euro with hardly a blink; indeed, it has been commented on just how little nostalgia for the Irish currency there has been. As for the convenience of sharing the same currency with Europe, it's already seeing dividends for the tourist industry here - I haven't tested it myself yet, as I tend to travel to the UK I have to say though that it's cool to find coins from places like Portugal, Greece and Finland turning up in your loose change - it makes the world seem a smaller place!

As for the 'problems' mentioned by JT Wayland, the reasons for Irish inflation are internal (overheating economy due to 10%PA growth for 5 years ) - the issue with the Euro/ECB is that the Irish Central Bank can no longer raise interest rates to pull it back in. However, that's only one way to combat inflation (which is itself being fuelled by certain specific factors that could be better controlled if the politicians had the will to do so). It's true that the ECB running monetary policy for the whole region can leave mixed feelings, but this should improve as economies harmonise more in the next 3-5 years. And Ireland is unusual in the Euro context, as the bulk of it's imports and exports are traded outside the Euro zone (mostly the UK) - it's been observed by some of the cheekier economic commentators here that Ireland would be better off joining the NAFTA too...

Oh, Querlin, the Irish issue escaping you is the Nice Treaty referendum, which the Irish voted No to, mainly because:
a) It appeared to undermine Irish claims to neutrality (not that Ireland has ever been neutral in reality, but we'll let that pass)
b) It appeared to centralise power within the EU (as if it wasn't enough already), and reduced the ability of smaller countries to SNAFU things with their veto
c)The Irish government made a complete b***s of informing the voting public exactly what the Nice Treaty was about, while certain special interest groups, such is Sinn Fein and the religious right, put their own high-profile spin on it - and interestingly, a lot of the money for the religious right's campaign appears to have come from similar groups in the US (what's their game, I wonder).

Of course, the Nice Treaty also included the legislation to begin bringing new countries into the EU, and Ireland's problem with ratifying it could have serious repercussions, which has led to some apocalyptic comments from other parts of the EU. Seems to me that some people still have problems with the concept that a referndum and a rubber-stamp are not in fact the same thing

I'm ambivalent on Europe - I think that it has good ideas, the Euro being one of them, free trade within borders beign another. However, I already think that's it's a bureaucratic nightmare, and it's only going to get worse...

As for ID cards, it sounds like a good basic idea run amok - keep it straight and simple, with only certain state-sourced info on it (e.g. NI number and details, Driver's Licence details, etc).

[C5]

On the inflation issue, the biggest problem IMHO was that some commerces took advantage of the Euro conversion to increase their prices. In France, at least, and although our governement stated otherwise, preventing or even controlling such abuse was not very feasible, so a lot of conversions were generously rounded up.
One example of that, was a restaurant I went with some friends : all the prices were integers... and given the conversion rate between Franc and Euro, this meant either all prices used to be multiples of 6.55957 before, or that they gained some Francs in the conversion.
Currently, apart from the maths Euro puts me through (dividing by 15 or multiplying by 6.5 is not always easy ), I see few troubles with Euro remaining around here.
And I agree we have to unite... union is what made major countries in Europe what they are.

As for ID cards, well... I'm afraid I don't have much of an opinion on the matter

[kalamaro]

kes qui se passe ? j'avoue que je n'ai pas trop compris le coup de gueule

for ID cards? that maybe on century we have it! for us , is not a probleme (in france id cards is free since 1999-2000.)

in france there are 2 other paper can substitute to id card : driver licence and passport.