For the UK/European Folks - Primarily...

[KillerWhale]

What shouting, Kalamaro? No shouting here, as far as I can see

[Cmmdr JT Wayland]

First off I am not a Xenophobe, but I am very Eurosceptic. For me and other Euroscpetics of all the major and minor political parties, our main concern is the Political implications of the Euro, not the supposed financial and economic benefits, (it will cost us nearly £40 billion pounds at the latest estimate to change over to the Euro). At the moment if the government messes up the economy (as the present one is increasingly doing), then we have the DEMOCRATIC right to elect a new government, by transferring CONTROL of our economy to the Eurocrats on the continent we FOREVER lose the right to control our own destiny as a country and as a people. That is why at the moment the Anti-Euro Campaign is increasingly being lead by ordinary people as well as media celebrates and not just by politicians of both the left and right.

But as for hating all things European, I must admit to being very wary of Europe and most especially it’s history and our tendency to ignore it. The real bitter truth is that the history of Europe and the Christian Faith over the last two thousand years and most especially of the Holy Roman Empire and the Catholic Church over the lat twelve hundred years, is that it was extremely evil and very repressive. The whole of Western Civilisation for the last two thousand years has been obsessed with creating the perfect Politically and Religiously Correct Utopian State. For most of that time, the Politically Correct Utopian State was a rigid feudal state ruled over by divinely appointed king, in which everything Western Civilisation presently stands for, multi-party democracy, equal rights for women and ethnic minorities, toleration of alternative religions and other cultures, were regarded as dark satanic heresies that had to be exterminated using all and any methods necessary, including black propaganda, repression and even genocide. Especially against the Moslem world and the Greek Orthodox and Protestant Faiths.

Indeed the entire political and constitutional history of the English Speaking World has been one of rebellion against what was Politically Correct in Europe, for example, the introduction of the Common Law in the twelfth century, the Magna Carta, the Declaration of Abroath, the Reformation, the Civil Wars of the 17th and 18th Centuries, the Bill of Rights of 1689 and of course, the American Revolution.

As for the Future, another thing we MUST remember is that the last one hundred and fifty years in particular and the last five hundred years in general, has been one of Global Abnormality, in which one continent, Europe, came to dominate and enslave the World. The events of the last century have hopefully broken the power of Europe,and the old problems that have existed for centuries and millenia are re-emerging, ie, Tribal Warfare in Africa, the tensions between the West and Islam, the increasing power of a resurgent China, Global Climate Change and other Environmental potential mega-disasters. We most find new ways of dealing with this old problems, problems greatly exacerbated by the events of the last half a millenium.

Europe is now at a crossroads as to it’s future, ever since the end of the Second World War, the politically correct view has been that the future of Europe lies in creating a Socialist United States of Europe, founded on the lines of the French Fifth Republic rather than the English derived United States of America or the Commonwealth of Australia. That view of the future is being challenged not only Right Wing Parties in Europe, but more importantly by the people of Europe, who are becomingly increasingly disenchanted by what they see as an increasingly corrupt and undemocratic system, not only at EU level, but in the individual states, witness the recent events in France.

One of my greatest fears, is that if we do not heal the increasingly bitter transatlantic divide between the US and Europe, very soon, than within a generation, then there WILL be a war between the US and its allies in the English speaking world as well as the Pacific Rim and Europe (including Russia). The only way, I can see of healing this divide is for the EU and NAFTA to be scrapped and their roles to be taken over by a reformed and reorganised NATO. Further more, the power of political parties has to be curbed markedly, one way is to scrap Proportion Representation types of Electoral Systems, they are not Fair for they entrench the power and positions of political parties against the rights and interests of the ordinary voters. Political Parties are a very useful tool for helping to run a democracy, they are not essential as many of the Left believe, and they can be dispensed with. We have to encourage ordinary people to become involved in politics again and unfortunately they are fed up with political dogma, so we politicians have to forget about the intricacies of obscure points of political dogma and grand ideas and concentrate on being pragmatic and practical and finding common sense solutions to their problems.

RANT OVER

[KillerWhale]

by transferring CONTROL of our economy to the Eurocrats on the continent we FOREVER lose the right to control our own destiny as a country and as a people

I fail to see more than an opposition island/continent here. Do you think that a united economy means you lose any power on your destiny? I agree that centralized power must be closely watched. But let's not mix economical power with sovereignty.

the Holy Roman Empire and the Catholic Church over the lat twelve hundred years, is that it was extremely evil and very repressive

That's true.
As has been the UK with the colonization.
As has been Japan with its expansion.
As has been the expansionists African tribes.
As has been the Soviets.
All have a way of saying "My way is better than yours". We are no exception. Not worse, not better.

That's why uniting - NOT MERGING - may help us understand each other better. Hell, I watch too much ST

the politically correct view has been that the future of Europe lies in creating a Socialist United States of Europe, founded on the lines of the French Fifth Republic

Excuse me, but I think you don't know the French 5th Republic so well. Nobody ever wanted to model a SUSE (huh, like Linux? ) on this. It simply can't work out for a simple reason; in the 5th, almost all power is centralized in the hands of the president. That's why there has been here some talking about a 6th republic.

What you fear in your SUSE, I think, is a bureaucratical republic. I can assure you the weight of bureaucracy in France has nothing to do with the 5th republic. It's something else: it's genetic

My opinion is, it's not by braking and staying as we are that we can have a chance. We have to change - but be careful thus doing.

who are becomingly increasingly disenchanted by what they see as an increasingly corrupt and undemocratic system, not only at EU level, but in the individual states, witness the recent events in France.

I think the Euro, the sovereignty, and the failing political class are all different things.

We just unite on the ECONOMIC level. We will retain our language, our culture (well, for any forseeable future at least - may not be in 4 centuries, with the UFP and all that )

The only way, I can see of healing this divide is for the EU and NAFTA to be scrapped and their roles to be taken over by a reformed and reorganised NATO.

Great. Then we'll be at the mercy of the US. Mind you, the NATO is controlled by the US. As the UN. I thought you didn't want to submit to anything?

We have to encourage ordinary people to become involved in politics again and unfortunately they are fed up with political dogma,

AMEN!!!! to that.

[Cdr Scot II]

Originally posted by Cmmdr JT Wayland
The only way, I can see of healing this divide is for the EU and NAFTA to be scrapped and their roles to be taken over by a reformed and reorganised NATO.

Some interesting ideas, but a few flaws, the most serious of which is the above comment; namely, that an economic pact be replaced with a military one. Where does that leave nations that espouse 'soft' neutral (i.e. Ireland) or 'hard' Neutral (i.e. Switzerland) stances in this context?

The whole focus of any increasing European integration must be based primarily on economic grounds, because ultimately all wars have an economic context at least to some degree, particularly between nation-states, and if you make the cost expensive enough then modern capitalist economies are forced to find conflict solutions that do not ruin them as economic entities. And membership of a pact with a military element implies agreement with the goals of that pact, and commitment to supporting them - it may force you to take sides when you really don't want (or need) to from a strictly national point of view. I don't necessarily agree with that, particulalrly if you're a small, economically vulnerable nation.

I also think that it's a little unfair to decry Britain as the seat of radicalism and conquerer of absolutism - I think the little matter of the French Revolution should not be overlooked . Granted, politics and society in mainland Europe has developed differently to that of the British Isles, but living on an island has always insulated us from events in Europe to some degree, and one approach wasn't necessarily any better than another - after all, until the franchise was extended beyond rich landowners and the nobility, England and Scotland were little more than Monarchic Oligarchies (for want of a better description ).

[KillerWhale]

I think the little matter of the French Revolution should not be overlooked

VERY good point.

[Capt.Hunter]

The Euro: No real problem with the currency itself. The fact that the pound carries the Queen's head on it isn't a big issue to me as I'm not a Royalist. We do need to hang fire a bit until we get favourable conditions to join, but with the dollar currently down due to the Enron/WorldCom/Xerox scandals the Euro is looking pretty healthy. As long as the coins are sensible (no fiddly little things like our 5p piece, or big, ugly coins like the £2 one) then I won't have a problem. My only beef with the EU is the metric weight system they are imposing on food. As a scientist, I don't have a problem with the metric system itself, but as a cook, I find it very difficult to buy the right quantities of ingredients when all my cookbooks are in the Imperial system!

ID Cards: Apart from the obvious problem of what happens if it gets stolen, this is a tricky one. Personally, I have no problem showing people my driving licence, and I got used to having to show my passport in American bars. There should be limits on the power of the authorities to demand proof of identity however. The police should have just cause to demand to see it (suspicion of a crime, for example).

[Calcoran]

Note: wildly o.t.

but as a cook, I find it very difficult to buy the right quantities of ingredients when all my cookbooks are in the Imperial system

LOL! I happen to have a few cookbooks witten in English (Japanese, Indian, or otherwise exotic food) ... those are very good cookbooks that I'd hate to give up, but I always end up swearing at the units used there . What the hell did they need to measure everything in cups, oz., and Tbsps ?!? This is especially unnerving when you have something in your pan that's on the verge of exploding if you don't get the quantities right ... all right, I'm exagerating a bit, it'll just taste awful .

[Cybrludite]

Originally posted by Cdr Scot II

I also think that it's a little unfair to decry Britain as the seat of radicalism and conquerer of absolutism - I think the little matter of the French Revolution should not be overlooked

Yes, since the Jacobins were such paragons of tolerance for dissenting views and such. Absolutism isn't really conquered when you replace an Absolute Monarchy with a European version of the Khmer Rouge...

[Cybrludite]

Originally posted by Calcoran
Note: wildly o.t.
LOL! I happen to have a few cookbooks witten in English (Japanese, Indian, or otherwise exotic food) ... those are very good cookbooks that I'd hate to give up, but I always end up swearing at the units used there . What the hell did they need to measure everything in cups, oz., and Tbsps ?!? This is especially unnerving when you have something in your pan that's on the verge of exploding if you don't get the quantities right ... all right, I'm exagerating a bit, it'll just taste awful .

Heh. Most cooking isn't that picky. Granted, the chili I make for the 4th of July might explode if not watched properly, but that's what happens when you add a near critical mass of weapons grade plutonium to the mix.

[Capt.Hunter]

Aah - MILD chilli...

Seriously, the only spicy food I came across in the States anywhere near the level of heat I enjoy was Buffalo Style Chicken Wings (and they get you at the front of the mouth, not at the back). But you guys sure do mean steaks (plus you have the only restaurants I've ever visited that do "Me-Sized" portions...).

[Balok]

Well, I don't live in the UK or Europe, but I'll offer my $0.02 anyway.

Single Currency: I don't see the point of two currencies. So I think if the UK should either fully embrace the Euro, and cease circulating the pound, or it should go its own way, and stay out of the EU. The problem, of course, is that the EU is on the way to becoming an economic powerhouse, and the UK may soon not have a choice, if it wants to maintain its economic well-being. The UK would probably be better served to adopt the Euro (exclusively) sooner, rather than later.

National ID: The concept gives me the creeps. Yes, there are a number of cards both in the UK and over here that might offer many of the functions -- but none of them were created with the exclusive purpose of allowing folks to be tracked. Once you require such a card, it's a small step to requiring it to be shown for travel, for purchases, for pretty much anything. I think governments have enough power; they don't need any more.

Does that make me paranoid? Maybe. What I believe, though, is that such a card will mostly make ordinary citizens lives more difficult, and will not hinder criminals much (that's why they're criminals). I have a fundamental problem with limiting or removing freedoms because a few people abuse them. My answer is: find and punish those who abuse the freedoms. Don't take the freedoms away from everyone! That will generally only affect the law abiding; your criminals will continue unchanged. That's why they're criminals...

[Capt.Hunter]

Fesarius raises a valid point - criminals are always going to abuse the system, so making the system more restrictive for the rest of us isn't going to help.

As an example, the US recently argued against the EU setting up their own GPS system. Among other points (none of which truly give a reason for why it shouldn't be done except it'll destroy the US monopoly on the system), the main concern was "terrorists will use it to plan attacks if it's a civilian system". Well, yes, they might. But there's nothing to stop them using the US system either - that can only be shut off if the Americans KNOW there's a problem. And as the 9/11 attacks showed, these guys will find some way of attacking that we can't anticipate. Locking out civilian access to things because they could be abused is ridiculous - kitchen knives can be used to kill people, but there are no laws about who can own one.

[Koening]

Originally posted by Cmmdr JT Wayland
[B]First off I am not a Xenophobe, but I am very Eurosceptic. For me and other Euroscpetics of all the major and minor political parties, our main concern is the Political implications of the Euro, not the supposed financial and economic benefits, (it will cost us nearly £40 billion pounds at the latest estimate to change over to the Euro).

People in the UK should first ask themself if they really want to be in the European Union, because it is quite nebulous...

by transferring CONTROL of our economy to the Eurocrats on the continent we FOREVER lose the right to control our own destiny as a country and as a people.

That is a little hysterical, the union of the europe is the only way if we want to be competitive with the american goliath.

The real bitter truth is that the history of Europe and the Christian Faith over the last two thousand years and most especially of the Holy Roman Empire and the Catholic Church over the lat twelve hundred years, is that it was extremely evil and very repressive.

Evil is the kind of word that mean nothing, it was maybe repressive, it was not evil... And it seem we have learned pretty well from our experience with the two World War. After the first, Europe (and the US) choose to hit hard on Germany even if all country (Italy, France, UK, US) were guilty of atrocities, the WW2 was then inevitable... After the war, everything was going as in the WW1, the victors want revenge... but it does not continue and France start bringing together with Germany, to prevent future war. That is the basis of the European Union.

Indeed the entire political and constitutional history of the English Speaking World has been one of rebellion against what was Politically Correct in Europe

That is not a good thing, UK is ready to compromise his own economy just not to follow Europe, they prefer to follow gently the US.

One of my greatest fears, is that if we do not heal the increasingly bitter transatlantic divide between the US and Europe, very soon, than within a generation, then there WILL be a war between the US and its allies in the English speaking world as well as the Pacific Rim and Europe (including Russia). The only way, I can see of healing this divide is for the EU and NAFTA to be scrapped and their roles to be taken over by a reformed and reorganised NATO.

The EU scrapped ? you are fool, that is the best way to keep peace in Europe, to keep Europe strong. Sure european (exept maybne those in the UK) are not very pro-american and american not very pro-european, but what you ask is to dismantled Europe ? Europe is only a menace for the isolationist in the UK.