I love Gore Vidal

[AslanC]

Originally posted by Eric R.
Don't Patronize me on History.

Before I address this, I want to applaud you and Qerlin from showing me that you are not a pair of Jingoistic Reactionaires. Unfortuanatly with this troublsome topics tempers flair and words can often lose the intent that speaking would provide.

I may disagree with many of your points, I also agree with some.

Your rebuttle was elequent and well thought out, for the most part.

Now to the above.

Eric. I never said you were stupid. I never said you were wrong.

But you accuse me of patronizing your knowledge of history. At the same time, you patronize my knowledge of Lundburgh.

This is he problem, you percived an attack (or so it appears) so you aggresivly lashed out at me. I never attacked you, I questioned and challenged you.

That is the point of America. The ability to engage in the freedom of discussion or ideals without the fear of persecution.

I love that about America. I think that is the coolest piece of thought to ever come down the pipe.

What I dislike about America is the meddling in the affairs of other nations, primarily to feed an addiction to oil and other natural resources.

Why the hell should America tell the rest of the world how to live and then topple governments that get in the way of its own corporate desire?

Canada sells America the lionshare of it's oil. No other nation singularily provides the US with more resources, energy or oil. Why aren't we rich like the Shieks? Why aren't we a part of OPEC?

Because we beleive the minute we tighten the taps, America would mess us up. Look at this Softwood lumber business. Our perception of America is that they are the bully we are glad likes us. We sure as hell aren't going to try and antagonize it.

Our perception of America is one of reactionary excess (wether true or not, this is how America is seen). We fear the fact that you could roll thousands of troops, tanks and various other invaders across our border overnight and we couldn't even put up a fight.

And there ain't no one else on the planet that could help us.

Canada gets a unique view of America, but it is still tainted by our knowledge and fears (justifiable or not). So we are afriad of you.

This is what Gore Vidal is on about. Islam and other 1st world nations hate America because of what they have done, and what they are capable (in their minds) of doing.

Now I'd like to think that in the end, America will do what is right and eventually being bringing its' soldiers home from all over the world. But I fear that so long as there is oil to be had and big business lobbies to be sated it will never happen.

And as to the facts, perhaps Mr. Vidal does monkey with them. I do not know. But so do the Democrats and the Republicans and the churches of the world. Newspapers are owned by companies, not ideals. They skew things as well. If they didn't there would be only one paper, since the truth is the truth is the truth.

At the end of the day, as a leftist-libratarian I am stuck with a dilema in my feelings.

God bless America for everything good and noble and positive it has done.

God damn America for the murder and bloodshed in the name of money and power.

Just my two cents, and I look forward to your reply.

[Eric R.]

Originally posted by AslanC
[B]

Eric. I never said you were stupid. I never said you were wrong.

But you accuse me of patronizing your knowledge of history. At the same time, you patronize my knowledge of Lundburgh.[/]

Actually I had replied to the first before I read the bottom line of the reply so the Lindburg argument was a pure critque with follow up and was not meant to patronize you, my apology if you took it as such. I was not then really steamed at the moment as I became at the latter comment, my intent was only to show that in that case thie story was not quite so cut and dry as you had posted it.

That is the point of America. The ability to engage in the freedom of discussion or ideals without the fear of persecution.

quite right, but as I say there is no such thing as Value Free Socology contray to Weber's statements it is a myth and unattainable you will always engage the values of the other individual hence your will recieve in argument those same values which might include a forcable debate. The problem today is that too many want to engage in polite nice debates and not the hard fought drag out debates of years past. But with that said I always want to go and buy the opposite guy a bear to show respect for his opinion.

What I dislike about America is the meddling in the affairs of other nations, primarily to feed an addiction to oil and other natural resources.

Canada meddles in the affairs of other countries by its huge UN participation does it not? Was it not a Canadian General who originally commanded the UN force in the former Yugoslavia and who advocated military intervention If I believe right. If you think particpation in UN peacekeeping affairs prohit others from viewing you as meddling go talk to the Pakistanies who were in Somali in 93. If we interfeared in the affairs of the countries where we get the majority of our oil then we would be intervening in Mexico, Venezulla (well got us there maybe) Britian, and Canada. The world thinks, as well as the sophmoronic media that US oil comes from the Mid East, in truth Europe and Japan feed off mid east oil, not us, not anymore (60% of our oil comes from Mexico). We protect the supply to keep those areas stable to prevent further trouble such as the 20's and 30's saw.

Canada sells America the lionshare of it's oil. No other nation singularily provides the US with more resources, energy or oil. Why aren't we rich like the Shieks? Why aren't we a part of OPEC?

Good questions, one's you should ask your own government, but Oil wealth is a drug just ask the people in Texas and Oklahoma where until recently whole blocks of homes sat empty due to no buyers or renters.

[b]
Because we beleive the minute we tighten the taps, America would mess us up. [/i]

No your own government understand how much stability is important and by loosening up the tap what it would produced. Why do you think the US has finally agreed to buy Russian oil instead of pumping it out of Alaska? one to lesson even further are reliance on the mid east which at this point is almost nil and to stop them from flooding the market and thus instability in the region. OPEC is allowed to set the price but as more non Opec sources emerge that price is going to start to be alterted with by those outside OPEC, big OPEC is not what it use to be and there taps in the mid east are drying up.

Our perception of America is one of reactionary excess (wether true or not, this is how America is seen). We fear the fact that you could roll thousands of troops, tanks and various other invaders across our border overnight and we couldn't even put up a fight.

Don't doubt yourself as a people the US found out all too early (fourtunately) and painfully that you can become united and forceful when you want to. Three failed invasions that were suppose to be cake walks, plus the tough reputation earned in two World Wars shows that your have the same martial streak in you as we do.

[b]
This is what Gore Vidal is on about. Islam and other 1st world nations hate America because of what they have done, and what they are capable (in their minds) of doing.[/i]

No not what we have done but we have not done. Listen to there arguments, way haven't we told the Isreali's to let the Palistians have a state, what don't we tell Eyqpt to be nice to fundalmantist, stop backing currupt regimes so that democratic ones can emerge, why don't we do something to help the Palistians and on and on. In fact in someways that want a real colonial power one that does throw its wight around making things happen. America is being attacked to make it DO something not the other way around.

Now I'd like to think that in the end, America will do what is right and eventually being bringing its' soldiers home from all over the world. But I fear that so long as there is oil to be had and big business lobbies to be sated it will never happen.

Pull them from Where?
Bosnia - Where all say we are a stablizing force and if were not there if fall apart.
Sini - agin stablity
Afganistan - Stability
Iraqi - where are planes keep them from pounding the Kurds and others?

Are pulling out of world affairs in the 20's and 30's is directly linked to the worlds instability that followed that is not argued, Americas disengagement is one of the leading causes of World War Two. American policy makers have learned there leason and recognized the mistakes the last time we were in the same position and royally F@#$ed it up.


All I can say is open yourself up to think that business is not in control or if it is, it is stability that it wants not total control over the world.

Besides, such statements are crazy everybody already knows its the evil pact between the Martians and the Masons that controls the world . . . . . .

Seriously, how can American Big Business control the world when it can bearly do its own books? Americans are more leery of firiegn businesses then they are of american one for instance in my two alone Sony TV and a Germany mining company own the two bigist industry's around here. The Big Business theroy of world control is dying as a viable academic position these days its just too well sorry to say, but marxist.

[qerlin]

"Canada sells America the lionshare of it's oil. No other nation singularily provides the US with more resources, energy or oil. Why aren't we rich like the Shieks? Why aren't we a part of OPEC? "

Because the Cannuks are too busy chillin' in the Great White North, man! They spend all their money on beer and back bacon.