Unarmed combat and Armour ...

[Polanski]

Here is a case scenario:

A fit and experienced starfleet officer, lets call him William Riker, decides to be quite well trained in unarmed combat. Following that he has a considerable experience with both offensive and defencive tactics. He like to be able to drop things if need to.

Now that officer comes accross Klingon Rogue, a basic Klingon guy who happens to be wearing Klingon Armour.

Bah, the combat starts, Riker decides to hit the Klingon, he makes his attack, he is good and he hits the Rogue.

He rolls the damage: 1d3+strength mod
He is also lucky he rolled 3 and his strength mod is 2, that is a total of 5.

Except that the Klingon is wearing the armour and that deflects 7 points of damage. Even if Riker acomplishes complete success and gets additional +4 to the damage thats 9 all together. He have just made an exceptional hit with all the maximum rolls and so on ... and the result is 2 points.

Now unless he pickups some advantages which allow him to trade the chance to hit for the chance of bigger damage he is hoplessly outgunned.

What is this Riker guy was a female that is quite capable in Judo, a defensive and non impact form of fight, and had 12 points in it, with all due respect she would clear a floor with a basic Klingon and yet if you apply unmodified rules a skill of 12 in unarmed combat would not make much difference against a Klingon with an armour and a skill of 3 or so ... and since this is a defensive style of combat the character could not justify an advantage to cause additional damage.

We see Klingons flying and hiting bulkheads every so often when handled by a decend security officers...

So what gives? Have I missed something? Anyone care to make a suggestion?

Regards

[Dan Gurden]

Looks like you have a handle on the rules. Your Will Riker had better start looking at ways to drop Klingons faster...

You are forgeting a couple of things...

a - These Klingons are unlikely to be un-armed themselves. In your example Will is likely to be dodging Disruptor blasts and Bat'leth, Mek'leth and D'k'Tang blades...

b - Armour is VERY good at deflecting un-armed hand to hand attacks, hell even BONE can break the fingers of a bad punch. If you know any Live-action roleplayers, try punching them if they wear chainmail and/or leather armour... The failure using this real-life example is that Will is taking no damage to his hand when punching... This would be a little too detailed for me, so I am glad this return damage is not considered.

c - We know where the armour covers, therefore a called shot to say, the head, would be increased difficulty, but not be interferred with by armour (GM call on that one)...

d - (Also a GM call), as Judo is a throwing sport, Wills female friend would still be clearing up... Just because the Klingons are taking little damage from impacting the floor, doesn't mean that they are still standing after a successful attack...

Those are the just a few things that spring to mind in consideration of your query. Of course an official ruling is probably just around the corner. Doug?

[RaconteurX]

I concur with Dan here.

There are definite ways to circumvent body armor when fighting unarmed, and among the most efficient ones are sweeps and throws. Also, consider the very simple wrist lock: marvelous as a means to inflict minor yet effective injury (wrists, as most joints, are delicate) with minimal contact, and it can be used to disarm a foe or preface more debilitating follow-up strikes (say to the elbow, or the knee). Most so-called "grab" martial arts were designed to allow unarmed combatants to deal with foes who were armed and/or armored.

[Doug Burke]

Actually, I don't see the problem. Armor is supposed to protect from physical (even unarmed) damage. If you want to damage an armored opponent in unarmed combat, use the modifiers of Table 6.20 in the NG (pg. 92) for "Shooting Around Cover/Called Shots".

[RaconteurX]

Originally posted by Doug Burke
Armor is supposed to protect from physical damage.

Except armor does not protect every area equally against different forms of physical force. Joints cannot be completely covered, simply because they must be able to move. Protecting joints is only reflected in game systems rarely (HarnMaster comes to mind) Armor also can't protect against torque.

To damage an armored opponent in unarmed combat, use the modifiers of Table 6.20 in the NG (pg. 92) for "Shooting Around Cover/Called Shots".

It makes pretty much any unarmed attack against a joint (wrist lock, ankle sweep, throat strike) take a +8 TN, which I suppose isn't too bad. Narrators can modify for other variables (advantageous position, etc.) with ease... yeah, I think you're dead on, Doug. I just think people want manuevers for Close Combat.

[Doug Burke]

Originally posted by RaconteurX
Except armor does not protect every area equally against different forms of physical force. Joints cannot be completely covered, simply because they must be able to move. Protecting joints is only reflected in game systems rarely (HarnMaster comes to mind) Armor also can't protect against torque.

Right. But simulating that is very difficult without getting too detailed.

It makes pretty much any unarmed attack against a joint (wrist lock, ankle sweep, throat strike) take a +8 TN, which I suppose isn't too bad. Narrators can modify for other variables (advantageous position, etc.) with ease... yeah, I think you're dead on, Doug. I just think people want manuevers for Close Combat.

Well, maybe they can adapt some of the armed combat maneuvers that are in the LOTR game when it comes out...

[RaconteurX]

Originally posted by Doug Burke
Maybe they can adapt some of the armed combat maneuvers that are in the LOTR game when it comes out...

Ah, now there's an idea. Fully of crunchy goodness for girls and boys of all ages, is it?

I've heard wonderful things about the /LOTR/ book (although the /Adventure Game/ did not appear to receive many glowing reviews).

[Polanski]

Thank you for your reply and suggestions ...
I like the called shots based on cover table idea ...

Still, what kind of extra damage modifier would you use if the called shot hit the head or the joint?

Are we talking disabling the arm, modifying agility and/or strength when using damaged joint?

Perhaps the hit should follow up with stamina reaction checks to see the effects?

[RaconteurX]

Originally posted by Polanski
What kind of extra damage modifier would you use if the called shot hit the head or the joint?

You can use the Deliberate Attack edge as a guide, and apply the called shot modifier (+8) as a damage bonus.

Are we talking disabling the arm, modifying agility and/or strength when using damaged joint?

Judge special effects based on the intent of the called shot. A blow to the head could stun, a blow to the elbow could disable the arm, a wrist lock could disarm or enable a follow-up strike without called-shot penalties or armor protection.

Perhaps the hit should follow up with stamina reaction checks to see the effects?

An opposed test of the defender's Stamina vs. the attacker's Strength (modified by the damage done) would work for stun attacks. An opposed Quickness test would better model sweeps and throws. Disarms would be an opposed test of the better of Strength and Quickness.

And that's just off the top of my head. Look at the
Expanded Unarmed Combat Rules thread (wherever it's hiding) for further good ideas.