A Call for Reason

[Sarge]

Jeez, Selek, why don't you tell us how you really feel? It's bad for you to keep your feelings all bottled up like that.

Seriously, I see your point and feel your pain, but I feel compelled to point out that the US chose not to get involved in either world war until our own citizens were dying aboard the Lusitania or at Pearl Harbor.

I'd love for the whole world to stand up and say, "Gee, we owe a lot to the US military. Thanks for everything, and if you ever come visit, we'll give you a 50% discount on everything you buy, Sarge." Sure, that'd be great, and well-deserved too , but I know I live in a glass house, so I'm not going to start heaving rocks.

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

Y'know Selek unlike some Brits, I happen to like Americans, and I appreciate the accomplishments the US has made, and the good things they've done. I even agree with Sarge, we owe a lot to the US and her military. That said, I do not think the sun shines out of your collective asses, and I reserve the right to disagree with ya'all if I so desire. Nor are you guys the entire world, and nor are you the 'saviours' of our entire planet, no matter what some of your more 'vocal' countrymen may think.

And as far as you in particular are concerned, I'll refrain from saying something I'll later regret, other than to suggest you learn to edit your mouth.

[AslanC]

Originally posted by selek
Your prosperity (including in Canada) has been built upon the bleached bones of my country men and I am sick to death of listening to the "cultural elite" and "more civilized" Europeans look down the end of their brown-coated noses at my country.

I have to ask, other than having beaten you from conquroring us back in 1812, what the hell other threats have you been saving us from here in Canada? Mexico? The Inuit menace? Sorry you probably call the Es-kee-moes!

Okay, okay that was uncalled for. I obviously overstepped my bounds implying that you wouldn't know the correct "non offense" term for Native North Americans living in the far North.

My bad.

Originally posted by selek
... and telling yourselves that you are better than the boorish Americans. Horse shit! ... Let HER bail you out the next time you're getting your collective socialist !#@$# kicked.

So it's okay to type out "Horse shit", but the word "asses" is far too offensive to type out.

That's funny.

You deserve a cookie.

[C5]

Once again, I'd like to point out that :

1) Disagreeing with the US international politics doesn't make one a fanatic anti-american craving for the destruction of the USA.

2) The fact that one country helped another at some time in history doesn't prevent the latter to ever raise its voice against the former. The USA helped Europe a lot during WWI and II, that doesn't make the current USA godly flawless, and every disagreement from a European a proof of utter ungratefulness.
In other words... I've had enough of this argument of "We helped you during WWII so shut up now". Otherwise, I could start ending each of my posts with "Hey, how could the USA dare raise their voice against France while the States only exists thanks to France's help ?"

3) We know what bombings are... many European countries had their share of it (though none of the magnitude of 9-11, of course).

4) The world is not in black and white. The USA are not flawless. Europe is not flawless. Both can be partially right (or wrong) at the same time.

5) French wine is not cheap

[Capt.Hunter]

C5, I agree with everything you said apart from the bit about the wine. 50p a bottle? I'll have some of that - who cares if it's not finest quality, after half the bottle you stop caring...

[Surak]

Hmm horseshit? Well apart from using bad language it`s not correct. Ever thought about what inventions are European?
I will give some examples of german inventions. I think the other europeans here could do the rest

German Inventions:

The fax
The phone ( although it was a german/british invention)
The plane (also british/german)
Jets ( mean the planes )
The car
Protestantism ( ok invented is the wrong word/ Martin Luther)
Aspirin ( ever had a headache? )
Penicilin ( or a similar substance. not 100% sure)
The Panzer/tank as we know it today ( ok originally american, but given a new shape by germans as everyone surely knows)
The Autobahn

Well this is what i remind right now, is certainly more.

[Dan Gurden]

Originally posted by Surak

The Autobahn

You might have to give p on the Autobahn Surak... No other country in the world has anything like it! Moterways are close (70mph limit)... But by my (shaky) understanding even American Freeways are low speed limit controlled (would happily be corrected if wrong...

Originally posted by Surak

The Panzer/tank as we know it today ( ok originally american, but given a new shape by germans as everyone surely knows)

It might have been an American invention, but it was the Europeans that developed that idea... Although Modern Tanks are far closer to T34's... Even the Pather was based on the T34's success... And to pass credit where its due the Soviets built their tanks along the lines of Lewis's designs (an American)...

Mind you, the only reason the The US didn't develop the tank was due to their pacifist forein policy of the 1930's... Until Eisenhower used his influence to modernise their army...

And I'll stop there, before fact becomes opinion. I am damned if I am going to retort to some of the smaller minds that have posted here... Because I would rather not say anything that would upset and annoy the Americans that I like and admire...

[Dan Stack]

[Note - Just being a little silly here, don't take me too seriously here]

Well by your definition, you can't claim credit for both the Panzer Tank and the Telephone. Much as Germans took the tank into how it is seen today, it is Bell who invented the telephone as we know it (and some consider Reis (the German dude) got the idea from a French dude - Bourseul )
http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1098.htm

Very few things are invented in a vacuum. I would say that credit should go to the person or people who made an invention practical. So, I'll give Germans the tank and leave the phone for Americans.


In any case I've never been a big fan of the "we saved your butts so you should be grateful to us" argument. Not that I don't believe the US did save Europe from Nazism and Communism, but that is tempered by the fact that it was in our own best interest to do so (which is the main motivation for pretty much every action a nation state takes) and also due to the fact that what comes around goes around - the French helped us out in our Revolution, Europe stayed neutral in our Civil War - it only seems sporting that we helped out the European nations in their time of need.

The main reason we can squabble with the European powers is we have so much in common - it's more like a family argument. Compare that with our relationship with many of the Arab states. The caricature of an American in Europe is probably a gunslinger who wants to shoot badguys, eat at McDonalds, and drill for some oil to pump directly into the 3 Mile Per Gallon SUV. The caricature of an American in many Middle Eastern nations is an infidel who deserves death.

(Oh for good measure, the American caricature of a European is probably that of a well-intentioned but hopeless idealist who doesn't beleive that bad guys exist ))

[Capt.Hunter]

Oh, we know bad guys exist - we've seen enough of them. Britain's been conquered more times than I've had hot dinners, but just as often it's kicked the bad guys' asses back to where they came from...

[calguard66]

As an American soldier, I have to say that these comments are harldy fair.

Canada has always stood beside the US, and the courage of the individual Canadian soldier is beyond question. Their current government may leave a lot to be desired, but on the whole I can't think of any other nation I would want on my northern flank. Perhaps Canada should annex Mexico.

As for Europe, the UK is firmly with the US... much like Canada, they have always supported us in the rough spots. They are also the only other nation on earth that has signifigant power projection capability.

As for the rest of Europe, if they show reluctance and desire to resolve the conflict without violence, who can blame them? I'm not particularly looking forward to it myself...

I think they are _wrong_, and that violence is the appropriate tool to resolve this situation... but hardly blame them for wanting it not to be so.

Originally posted by selek
[color-red]I may not be European, but maybe they have the right attitude about things, because they lived through two world wars. War is never, ever a good thing.

Violence should always be the last option.
[/COLOR]

Yes, Europe survived two world wars. Europe and her people survived those wars because AMERICAN boys went over there and bled and died after the enlightened Europeans appeased and apologized and wrung their hands and whimpered and wined and moaned and then SURRENDERED!

Your prosperity (including in Canada) has been built upon the bleached bones of my country men and I am sick to death of listening to the "cultural elite" and "more civilized" Europeans look down the end of their brown-coated noses at my country.

You've spent the last fifty years hiding behind American military might and sipping tea and telling yourselves that you are better than the boorish Americans. Horse shit! The only thing Europe has exported in the last fifty years is watered down socialism and some cheap wine. Or is that whine?

Last I heard, it wasn't three thousand of your citizens who were bombed,burned, asphyxiated, and crushed. So tell you what- if you want no part of what we feel we need to do in Iraq, go home to Mommy and cry.....

Let HER bail you out the next time you're getting your collective socialist !#@$# kicked.

You are correct on ONE thing. War is never, ever a good thing. But sometimes it's the only thing left to do. Stop cowering behind Chamberlain's skirts, drop you socialist agendas, and come join the REAL world.

There will still be dragons to slay when you do!

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

Well said calguard.

[selek]

Okay, I've read a lot of the posts here, particularly those after my rant. I would like to clarify a couple of things.
Despite my earlier tirade, I am not anti-European (or anti-Canadian , either, except perhaps for Rather, Jennings, and Shatner). When my grandparents and great-grandparents sent their sons 'over there', it was with the intent of not only securing our own interests and resisting evil, but in preserving the good things in Europe. As was pointed out, our most steadfast allies lie on the continent, and we ARE grateful. Again, as was pointed out earlier- it seems much like a family squabble when we disagree.
I do not beleive that Americans are infallible (I just tried three times to spell that), nor do I believe we are the sole voice of reason, democracy, or wisdom in the universe. I spent a number of years serving along side Marines (I was Navy) and got to see "The Ugly American" first-hand far too often. I never said I couldn't understand why some Europeans think Americans are boorish. Just not all of us.
I do not believe my beef is with the average European on the street (or autobahn), but with the leftists and elitists which seem to make up the talking heads.
The prosperity and social programs of which the socialists in our societies are so proud were built with money that would have been spent on Defense if Americans were not holding the line on your soil. Money you didn't need to spend on guns instead went for butter (and L50 wines).
Yes, free Europe stood watch too, but does anyone really think France, or Germany, or even Britain herself would have been able to resist the Stalinist hordes without the American G.I.?
A sizable percentage of your wealth, prosperity, and comfort have been built secure in the knowledge that there was a cop on the beat. That cop was wearing red, white, and blue.
Now America is targeting an evil man who has proven time and again that he has no qualms about murdering innocent men, women, and children in the most horrific ways imaginable. Remember, you don't need a camp and a shower to gas people. America has decided that for her own sake, for her children and yours, that this evil must be opposed BEFORE it crosses the Maginot line.
The parallels between then and now are clear, but just like in the thirties, the storied elites and the ivory tower intellectuals are wringing their hands and singing the sad opera of appeasement.
Thousands, if not millions died in two World Wars while America stood by, lending only support. It has been rightly pointed out that things might have been different had we gotten involved earlier. Will you now stand by? How many millions will be aboard YOUR Lusitania?

Also, I don't believe England has EVER been conquered. Beaten half to death, bombed into rubble, NEARLY starved into submission, but never conquered.

[Kaiddin]

Also, I don't believe England has EVER been conquered. Beaten half to death, bombed into rubble, NEARLY starved into submission, but never conquered.

Post 1066.

[Sarge]

That's much better, Selek. After your rant, I was wondering if you had the ability to express your opinion without getting offensive. Now I see that you can. Let's keep things civilized (or should that be civilised?) here; wars may be barbaric, but debates shouldn't be.

[Evan van Eyk]

Originally posted by calguard66

As for the rest of Europe, if they show reluctance and desire to resolve the conflict without violence, who can blame them? I'm not particularly looking forward to it myself...

Maybe that reluctance is because large parts of Europe were battlefield in WWII. Concerning me I still have many family members who remember WWII and as I am interested in history I always tried to get information of that time and know pretty well of the horros of it, althouh certainly not comparable to actual experience.
Although US were a major power in the war they never had battles in front of the door.
On the other hand I am not of the opinion to add any achievements of single persons to records of single cuntries, after all its not our benefit that Einstein was a genius and the like. I like more to regard achievements of any kind, may it be good or bad, as human achievements, because after all we all have to live with the consequences.



BTW
"The caricature of an American in Europe is probably a gunslinger who wants to shoot badguys, eat at McDonalds, and drill for some oil to pump directly into the 3 Mile Per Gallon SUV"

Do not tell that is not the right picture?? I am shocked!!


On a side note I have to admit, while I am certainly no prejudiced person and openminded, I expected something like that when entering the US. Its been three years now that I was in New York and I somehow expected to see more, well brutal people, after all what you hear about crimes and that. But I was really surprised how friendly, polite and generous the US were. It was really surprising when I sat on a bench with my friends looking on a city map. It's been several times that peopl asked us if we need help or advice. That people ranged from the ' guy next door' to the 'well dressed business man' leaving a bank on Wall Street. Sadly to say I never experienced something like that in Germany.