Legal Ramifications?

[Rixx Telar]

We just completed our 4th episode and an interesting point came up at the conclusion.

Is the Captain and the Commander in any way responsible for there actions, and how legal is it to do this under Starleet law?

OK, it started with the players being treated for oxygen deprevation after an environmental situation and they were all taken to medical for treatment. From there the passed out and had to rest. Each player was taken to the holodeck and placed in there room. Following was a Borg attack on the ship and each player in turn was assimilated.

There was of course a few problems along the way and the simulation malfunctioned, placing Klingons on board and time travel, but thats beside the point.

Anyway, after all was said and done the players and the Captain had two seperate points of view.

1. The reason behind the simulation was that we are at war with the Dominion and are about to become part of the task force to retake DS9. Our crew is relatively young and The Captain and XO wanted to put the crew under a stress test to see how they handle extreme situations.

2. Some players at the end protested about it is the equivilant of kidnapping and the manner in which it was done is wrong and both the Captain and the XO should be brought up on charges.

The arguements!

1. The Captain and the XO.

The beleive it is within their rights to train their crew as they see fit, within the guidelines. They believe they did nothing wrong as results would not have been accurate had the players known that they were in the holodeck.

2. Certain Players.

They believe that they should have been told about it and not just thrown in to the holodeck. They believe it is kidnapping.

So, would Starfleet frown upon this form of training or would it be acceptable? Does the Captain and XO have anything to answer for?

NOTES: The results of the training were lost anyway because of a computer malfunction, and one of the players decided to resign over the issue which was denied by the Captain.

[Roy Cowan]

Legally, I suppose it depends on whether or not civil rights are as strong in Starfleet as they are in the Federation at large. For example, IIRC, in the USA military personnel give up certain civil rights when they join the military, and are governed by the Uniform Code of Military Justice rather than the Constitution. I'm sure any of the military members on the list will correct any errors in that explanation.

I think the fact that resignations can be refused (which was also seen in the series), Starfleet personnel can be ordered into situations where death is certain (such as in Troi's bridge command test), and officers can be drafted as necessary in emergencies (such as Dr. McCoy in ST:TMP), I'd say that Starfleet can exercise more control over their officers than if they were civilians, such as the simulation you discussed.

(It may sound a bit harsh, but in an organization that does serve some emergency and military functions, these extra restrictions on personal freedom can be regrettably necessary. Imagine if they had to let everyone who didn't like the idea of fighting stay out of combat during the Dominion War. )

Wesley Crusher went through a similar simulation-that-seemed-real during his first try at entering the Academy in the TNG Episode "Coming of Age". It's probable every cadet goes through something like this.

As a RL example, Charlie Beckwith ran his men through a similar situation when he was setting up Delta Force. He created a very realistic simulation that the recruits thought was real. When the time came, he had the actors replaced with lifelike mannequins and let the snipers do their work. Some of them were very upset at being put through this (one man told him, "Don't ever do that to me again, boss."), but they understood thee necessity and he knew he could trust them to get the job done. Other forces have used equivalent measures.

So, personally, I'd say the Captain was well within his rights. It would probably be a good idea for him to emphasize that not only can he now trust them, but they now know that they can trust themselves in a stressful situation. Unless, of course, they blew it.

-- Roy

[Phantom]

I agree with what was said above, but those "simulations" were still basically voluntary. I don't think the legality question is should the Captain and XO be charged for the sim., but my question is how did the oxygen deprevation happen to those crew members? If it was truly accidental, then everything should be fine. Other then a few people with hurt feelings. But, if the Captain and the XO "arranged" the accident, and it can be proved, then not only should they be charged but drummed out of the service. There is a line between sending people to die in combat, but to purposefully send them into a situation that could be deadly to just set up some kind of test? I can't see Starfleet JAG standing for that.

[Evan van Eyk]

No it is not right. First of all no Officer is allowed to do direct harm to his inferiors. Causing traumas and psychological stress is included. Of course there are training methods which put special stress on the trainees but as soon as one of the participants shows signs of harm he taken out of this training - of course this may result in leaving the military.
Second Starfleet is no Military Organisation like the Marines or the US Navy. It is much more friendly and according to the Price of Freedom Sourcebook, our Civil Right is basicly that what is the Uniform Code of Justice of Starfleet.
Third I do not assume that making soldiers and especially commisioned officers unconsious taking them in a situation which they must assume is real and causes them harm is allowd in any Military nowadays.
Fourth of course it is kidnapping. The Captain of a ship has to do anything to prevent Harm from his crew ( is one of the General Orders ) but here he did the complete opposite. He made them be harmed with tranquilizers to make it possible to force them to take part in a combat simulation against their will or without informing them. That is a crime because it is illegal to use medicine on people you do not need it and then force them into dangerous situations. It is basicly like pulling the trigger of a grenade giving it to a soldier and then say, one wants to prepare them for combat.
There this holodeck training missions on the acadamy where it turns out that the cadets are trained on complete other things than they expected to be trained. But first of all they know that they are trained or tested and second they are not forced to to so - they can quit any time they want, especially if they cannot stand it mentaly.
BTW the Doctor of the ship who treated the characters is probably no longer a doctor, because:
He harmed the characters due to the unneeded medicine ( it is basicly the same as if he had beaten them up, but I o not know the English law term for it ), which is illegal. Second he violated the Hippocratic Oath by doing so in two ways. First because of the illegal medicine and second because of this treatment they had to suffer metal pain and stress. But as a doctor he has to prevent any harm from his patients and has to do all good he can do.
The Captain of a ship of course may train his crew, but this are far illegal methods. Especially in Starfleet where the basic principles are the Human Rights, which are obviously violated here. The least thing he had to to was inform the characters that they have to expect a unmentioned training session on the holodeck.
A Trial about this with the JAG may be a good episode to play out, where the characters take charges at the CO and the XO
( who is guilty because at such an action he has to stop the Captain, if neccessary by taking Command of the ship ). The basic idea is that the CO actually kidnapped the characters - he made them incapacitated and forced them to take part in a simulation which they were not able to end at their will. Additioanlly he violated General Order 5. And actually there is no proof that the Captain got not insane and a sadist who likes it if inferior officers suffer - I mean the training thing could be an excsue. And why train the characters with Borg if he wants to prepare them for the Dominion War. The XO is taken charges upon because of his duty to inform the Captain on mistakes and to take command if the captain proves to be incorrect and harming the ship or crew.
Last but not least the Chief Medical Officers will loose his Doctor degree, because of his violating the Hippocrating Oath. Probably the Captain and XO will loose a rank and get another post. All of them should get a reprimand in their record.

Of course there are simulated training sessions like Riker made with Troi. But she was not forced to do so, she was able to leave it if she feals she cannot stand it.
What would have the Captain done if one of the characters cannot stand the stress and kills the other characters?
I think this whole thing his highly illegal.

Even if the Oxygen thing was a real accident it is illegal because the characters needed medical treatment and not a test.

BTW another effect which shows the CO is not a very good one is that he lost the trust of his crew. If they always have to fear to be put in a similar situation there can be no trust, he betrayed them. But trust is essential for a command and good work.
------------------
"I am a great one for rushing in where angels fear to tread." - Cpt. Kirk, Star Trek VI

[This message has been edited by Evan van Eyk (edited 05-06-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Evan van Eyk (edited 05-06-2001).]

[Rixx Telar]

The Oxygen deprivation was not real. It was a sensor manipulation so the crew had to go to medical. What they recieved was something to enhance the experience by making them feel a bit tired and by having little sleep the results would be more beneficial. Also the entire exercise was monitored at all times and a crew member was beamed out at any time it was considered dangerous.

Also the Chief of Security wanted a training drill where the crew was not aware of things. So the the Commander organized one. The Chief of Security filled out a request form to the Commander and he got it approved by the Captain. The simulation was the result.

The Borg was used to keep the crew thinking as the Dominion would have just been a normal combat situation. The crew had to 'think fresh' to stay on top of the situation.

[This message has been edited by Rixx Telar (edited 05-06-2001).]

[USS Intrepid]

Actually there is a precedent for this.

First season TNG, the episode Coming of Age. Wesley was given a psychological test as part of the entry testing for Starfleet Academy. It involved an explosion, where he had to choose between saving one life over another. Now he was not aware he was being tested, and believed his and other lives to be at stake. However, neither he nor anyone else was in any danger at any time.

In one of the early TNG novels (non canon of course), we see cadet Tasha Yar being put through a similar testing procedure where she is trapped on a planet, fighting for her life agaisnt Orion pirates. In this case, it was a training and assessment simulation.

Now as to the specific situation in question, it really depends on what justification the Captain had to be giving extra training. However, I would argue that any Starfleet Officer is used to this sort of training scenario, and would be unlikely to object to somethign they have been exposed to at least once in their career.

------------------
Captain Daniel Hunter
CO NCC-73602, U.S.S. Intrepid
Star Trek: Intrepid

[This message has been edited by USS Intrepid (edited 05-06-2001).]

[calguard66]

I agree that, as long as proper safty procedures were in place, the training scenario was OK. And it's not kidnapping. Kidnapping is the moving of a person from one place to another without that person's consent. A person with command authority can order a person to move from one place to another for valid military purposes, and can physically move them if they refuse. So moving them via transporter shouldn't be any different than moving them any other way... and not telling them they WERE being moved is vital to the success of the mission, so that's OK too.

Even training doesn't have to be perfectly safe. If somebody drives their tank off a cliff during night manuvers (something I've seen more than once) the CO isn't held responsable as long as the troops involved had proper training and equipment. The military (even the Starfleet version of it) is a dangerous profession.

And a few posts above were correct in that we have seen this sort of training/ testing at least once in ST. The subjects wouldn't even have to be rendered unconcious medically, just wait for them to go to sleep and beam them to the holodeck... like the Cardassians did to Kira.

I've been running similar training missions from time to time in my campaign, but (so far) the subjects have all known it was a drill.

Thanks for the idea. Heh Heh Heh...

------------------
"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain

[This message has been edited by calguard66 (edited 05-06-2001).]

[calguard66]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Evan van Eyk:
No it is not right. First of all no Officer is allowed to do direct harm to his inferiors. Causing traumas and psychological stress is included.</font>

Well, different countries have different takes on the military. In Germany soldiers can have long hair and beards. The military of one country I've heard of (Denmark, Sweden??) has a union. So YMMV.

------------------
"I'd rather die standing than live on my knees..."
Shania Twain

[qerlin]

The UFP seems to be very rights-centric, so I would think you would probably have to either sign a waiver against any harm that comes to you emotionally or physically (they do this at the US SEAR school -- that's the evasion and interrogation resistance training. And it ain't fun.); or they would not allow that kind of training.

I always thought the Wesley episode was stupid: especially since it would be near impossible to be creating 'situations' for the candidates; the logistics alone would make for major screw-ups.

My take: the captain and the XO would see disciplinary actions. If they're friendly with their admiral/chain of command above them, they'd probably get a stern talking to over coffee. If they're a bit maveric, they'll probably garner an official reprimand. I doubt they'd do much more to them...they are in the middle of a War.

[Evan van Eyk]

I think they would kick them off because they are in the middle of a war.
There is no sense in keeping officers in Commans positions if their subordinates do not trust them and their decisions.
Why keep an officer who harms your own troops. that's nearly Betrayal - nearly.

Somewhere aboce is something about an interrogation school which has even more severe training. That's probably true, but first of all the trainees know they are trained and probably decided to to so on their own ( or chose the appropriate carrers ) and second they can probably drop out if they see they are not fit for it. Thos officers where not able to do so.

------------------
"I am a great one for rushing in where angels fear to tread." - Cpt. Kirk, Star Trek VI


www.farrealms.de

[This message has been edited by Evan van Eyk (edited 05-06-2001).]

[SIR SIG]

Well in Wesley's case of cadet stress test, they were told that a stress/performance test will happen unawares to them sometime in the next 24hrs after mentioned.

SO unawares that Wesley though his was a real accident

------------------
SIRSIG
AKA: SirPostalot
AKA: The MapMaker
AKA: The Trek Cartographer
AKA:...Well I could keep going forever

[Phantom]

I always thought that the best idea for a test, particularly in that ep., would to simply leave the cadet in the room for a couple of hours, let him stew and worry about what was going to happen. Let his own imagination work against him, while the test officers observed his reactions from another location.

[Rixx Telar]

The OCELOT SPEAKS....

Well, Hi I am the XO of rixx Telars campaign, Hmmmm A lot of good points.... But my arguments against the negative are such

1. The Complaining officer (the ships security officer) actually asked for a surprise training mission.

2. The crew was never in any danger, I as the XO was moderating the simulation from holodeck 2. General Order 5 was never broken.

3. Every other PC, though annoyed at the instant they found out it was a simulation, Laughed it off and thought it was a good premise for training.

4. The discussion went for several hours after the session, And the Head of Security tends to argue EVERY vital decision the captain tends to make..

One situation involved our ship Previously attacked by 2 Jem Hadar fighters and without warp capability, Given orders to find a Ship of an unknown race that was drifting in a nebula.... Our sheilds reduced to 60% the captain ordered to carry on with the mission.. The Assumption of Starfleet was that the Ship had something to do with a crisis on a colony world a week earlier.
Anyway with our Starboard sheilds at 60% and no warp we continued on our mission. We found the ship and determined it was adrift. We had yellow Alert. it would still be 20 minuites before the Sheilds were fully repaired but the only damage was the reduced starboard sheilds and no Warp....
The Head of security said the captain was endangering the crew and left a note about it in his report, As XO I argued this until my face turned blue...

5. The sad thing is the Character in question has Fanatacism of Starfleet. I feel as a Character he would Justify those situations due to his Fanatacism even If they were bad situations which I think they weren't. I have suggested to the GM to penalize him for not roleplaying his character correctly.

6. Phew.. That'll do Pig...

7. please continue arguing this topic I am loving hearing the veiws...

[Paul]

I think that there would be no formal charges laid against the CO and XO in this case. Starfleet might issue a caution to the two officers, but that would be about it.

The PCs' lives were never actually in danger. They were in a holodeck simulation with the safeties on. The only harm that would have come to them would have been either (a) at their own hands, or (b) if the ship had come under attack during the simulation (at which point the PCs would have realised that they "weren't in Kansas anymore").

Starfleet uses real life testing for many situations on many occasions. This enables Starfleet to assess its personnel as accurately as possible, and allows the crew to perform its own assessment of themselves and each other.

Had the PCs suffered actual harm while undergoing this test, then there may be possible ramifications beyond a little talking to - but on the strength of what's been described, I don't see that the CO and XO would be charged with anything.

------------------
A couple of comments to throw in times of stress to that person who's really annoying you...

"Oohhh. Did I just step on your itty-bitty ego?"
"How many times do I have to flush before you go away?"

[Michael Brinkhues]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by calguard66:
Well, different countries have different takes on the military. In Germany soldiers can have long hair and beards. The military of one country I've heard of (Denmark, Sweden??) has a union. So YMMV.

</font>

Oh the shame! Oh the rumors!

German soldiers can not have long hair and beards. German reserve! soldiers on an exercise can, as long as it does not interfere with their duties. Otherwise hair nets and even a shave can be ordered. So if the exercise would involve use of NBC equipment, I would have to shave of my Sideburns.

But we did have a union kind of think. Like all german unions it is self serving and quite useless.

A more interesting think is that:

• [li]German military justice is mostly based on civil laws. Everything with more than 30 days total arrest time goes to civil code.
  [li] A german soldier can cite he is "unable to kill due to moral or religious reasons" even five minutes before battle and must be placed to the rear in a combat situation until his claims could be resolved

As on the main case:

Ordering personell to certain dead in a "one or many" situation is okay. Putting personel into a situation as described is not. It may be legal but there is always the difference between legal and morally acceptable. I would request a transfer after beeing put through this since I would no longer trust the officer. [1]

As for Measly not knowing it was a test is like stating the "Kobayashi Maru" is a surprise. One excepts mental and moral challenges when appling for such a job. [2]

Michael

[1] After all I am experienced in that. 13 request for transfer to a line infantry company in 15 month - I hated staff duty

[2] I underwent extensive psychologic screening when I tried to become an officer. All they thought me fit was a Sergeant. (Guess: They were most likely right )