Page 10 of 10 FirstFirst ... 8910
Results 136 to 148 of 148

Thread: A not entirely positive review of CODA... (very long!)

  1. #136
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Dundee, Scotland, UK
    Posts
    1,808
    Originally posted by Calcoran

    All right, I probably am oversimplifying things ... but the fact is, the more I read this topic and Siroth's replies, the less constructive and credible it appears. Well, to Siroth's credit, he's kept rather polite and not too flame inclined during the whole thread. But still, 130 replies (some of which I committed) and counting makes one wonder ...

    I'm beginning to think the same thing.

    BTW, I can't believe this argument has dragged out to 10 pages now.

    "You can't take a picture of this; it's already gone." -Nate Fisher, Six Feet Under.

  2. #137
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Kettering,UK
    Posts
    925

    Smile

    This thread is like a car crash. I don't want to read it yet I find I can't look away.
    Greg

    "The dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had."
    Madworld, Donnie Darko.

  3. #138
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Brockville, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    4,394
    Originally posted by Don Mappin
    Do you intentionally try to be a jerk?
    No. I just return the favour.

    When I first got the new Trek game I made similar comments on how close it was to D20, and what did I get for my effort? I was called just about everything, except a Canadian. Everyone seemed so upset that I, or anyone else for that fact, had the audacity to compare the Great New Game to D&D. And leading the charge I believe was you. So, I don't think that using the term "huffy" as a descriptor was to far off the mark, and certainly was not used rudely.

    I have been told by people here that I "should grow a thicker skin" and the I should "relax." Well Don, I offer the same advice to you. The comment you refer to was not an insult aimed at you. It was a statement of how angry people around here get when trek is compared to D20. A rather useless state of affairs as far as I am concerned, I like both games equally. And given the success of D&D I think it would be a bit of an honour to be compared to such a venerable, and much loved, system and world. After all D&D started it all.

    Let me ask you was calling me a "Jerk" called for? If you answer yes, well I hope you feel better for it.

  4. #139
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    2,923
    Originally posted by Phantom
    Let me ask you was calling me a "Jerk" called for? If you answer yes, well I hope you feel better for it.
    Thanks for the clarification. If you've got a problem with me then feel free to shoot me an e-mail--no need to hide behind innuendos and thinly-veiled comments. Perhaps we can air it out?

    Justified? Sure, IMO, 'cause you're acting like one. Carrying a several-month-old grudge over a difference of opinion doesn't strike me as particularly healthy. (Is this where I'm supposed to make the cheap shot at you and return the favor?)

    BTW, thanks for the advice.
    Mass Effect Fate RPG | "Mass Effect meets Fate meets awesome = FREE"
    Contributor, Gnome Stew
    "In every revolution, there's one man with a pizza."
    Star Trek (TOS) "Pizza, Pizza" (Second season), story by D.S.McBride

  5. #140
    Originally posted by Doug Burke
    That's not true, Siroth. As several people have pointed out, the errata also says this on the subject of prereuisites: "Page 66, Command Officer, Prerequisites: Should read "Starship Duty or..." The same applies to the prerequisites listed for all Starship Officer elite professions." It's listed right below where it says you can't take Starship Duty with the Innovative edge.
    As I already pointed out in another thread, I missed that part of the errata because it refers to the wrong page.

    But yes, this means you're correct.


    If you're going to quote the errata to prove a point, make sure the same errata doesn't render your point invalid on the very next line.
    Given that a number of people have pointed this out by now (here and elsewhere) and yet failed to realize that the errata points to the wrong page of the PG, I think I can be excused for missing it as well. And I do admit it, after all.

    What exactly is this supposed to mean? Bajorans can't be Starship Officers? One of the character archetypes is even a Bajoran Starship Officer! Or are you trying to say that Bajorans have to be Starship Officers? This is equally incorrect. There is no restriction on what professions any species can take.
    My point was whether Bajoran militia officers cannot be Starfleet officers. The archetype you mention is a Starfleet officer. Bajor is not a part of the Federation, and so has no real connection to Starfleet (not yet, at least). That being the case, Starfleet officers would not man Bajoran starships, yet we do know they have them. These Bajoran ships must be manned by Bajoran militia because that is the Bajoran equivalent of Starfleet. Are they forced to be soldiers because they are in the Bajoran militia? If that is the implication, then I think that's a problem, particularly since Kira seems to grown out of being a soldier. But then, I also admit that I haven't seen her stats in the NG.

    BTW, Siroth, I find it interesting that you keep pounding the same quote from the Errata and bringing up the same comments about the "restriction" inherent in Coda. The fact that you are beating one aspect of the errata into the ground and ignoring others seems (to me, at least) to be indicative that you will not be changing your mind, no matter what response you get. If that is the case, you might consider just agreeing to disagree and moving on to another subject or even possibly a differen forum (as you have no interest in Coda other than to criticize it). We have plenty of boards here, so there should be something to catch your interest...
    Since your conclusion comes from minunderstanding (mostly on my part), I will consider it 'fruit of a poisonous tree' and refrain from responding, except to note that just as you seem to imply that I willfully ingore parts of the errata, I find it equally ironic that so many people can point this part out to me and yet miss that it refers to the wrong page in the book.

    But look at this way. If I indeed had found a hole in the rules or in the errata, wouldn't you rather have me point it out than play with a flawed system?

  6. #141
    Originally posted by Doug Burke
    That's not true, Siroth. As several people have pointed out, the errata also says this on the subject of prereuisites: "Page 66, Command Officer, Prerequisites: Should read "Starship Duty or..." The same applies to the prerequisites listed for all Starship Officer elite professions." It's listed right below where it says you can't take Starship Duty with the Innovative edge.
    As I already pointed out in another thread, I missed that part of the errata because it refers to the wrong page.

    But yes, this means you're correct.


    If you're going to quote the errata to prove a point, make sure the same errata doesn't render your point invalid on the very next line.
    Given that a number of people have pointed this out by now (here and elsewhere) and yet failed to realize that the errata points to the wrong page of the PG, I think I can be excused for missing it as well. And I do admit it, after all.

    What exactly is this supposed to mean? Bajorans can't be Starship Officers? One of the character archetypes is even a Bajoran Starship Officer! Or are you trying to say that Bajorans have to be Starship Officers? This is equally incorrect. There is no restriction on what professions any species can take.
    My point was whether Bajoran militia officers cannot be Starfleet officers. The archetype you mention is a Starfleet officer. Bajor is not a part of the Federation, and so has no real connection to Starfleet (not yet, at least). That being the case, Starfleet officers would not man Bajoran starships, yet we do know they have them. These Bajoran ships must be manned by Bajoran militia because that is the Bajoran equivalent of Starfleet. Are they forced to be soldiers because they are in the Bajoran militia? If that is the implication, then I think that's a problem, particularly since Kira seems to grown out of being a soldier. But then, I also admit that I haven't seen her stats in the NG.

    BTW, Siroth, I find it interesting that you keep pounding the same quote from the Errata and bringing up the same comments about the "restriction" inherent in Coda. The fact that you are beating one aspect of the errata into the ground and ignoring others seems (to me, at least) to be indicative that you will not be changing your mind, no matter what response you get. If that is the case, you might consider just agreeing to disagree and moving on to another subject or even possibly a differen forum (as you have no interest in Coda other than to criticize it). We have plenty of boards here, so there should be something to catch your interest...
    Since your conclusion comes from minunderstanding (mostly on my part), I will consider it 'fruit of a poisonous tree' and refrain from responding, except to note that just as you seem to imply that I willfully ingore parts of the errata, I find it equally ironic that so many people can point this part out to me and yet miss that it refers to the wrong page in the book.

    But look at this way. If I indeed had found a hole in the rules or in the errata, wouldn't you rather have me point it out than play with a flawed system?

  7. #142
    Originally posted by Capt Daniel Hunter
    Expensive to take a non professional skill. You might think so but I don't. Two picks instead of one, yeah that's just horribly expensive.
    I meant to say professional abilities, not skill. Mea culpa.

    Siroth, you might want to try reading all the rules (instead of bits and pieces) before you try telling us what they are, and what's wrong with them.

    And for the umpteenth time, you are taking the title of soldier too literally. It is a catch-all title. The professional development packages include a path for law enforcement officers, a la Odo. Odo is NOT a starship offcier, he is a police officer. That is his job. Just because he has many of the skills he needs to work on a ship, doesn't make him a bleeding starship officer. For someone who has written such an extensive review, your grasp of the actual rules seems to be very poor. If you want to try and push for rules alterations, you might want to actually learn the darn rules first.
    You know, I find it very interesting that you keep suggesting that I refuse to get your point, especially after I mentioned my reasons for this in an above post in which I listed the various professional abilities. And note that the post I refer to here was a post in reponse to you - one you chose to ignore...

    I'm the one refusing to listen here?

    Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me you just have an axe to grind. For a game you don't care for, you seem to have an awful lot to say about it.
    Yes... you are indeed wrong

  8. #143
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Canyon, TX, USA, Sol III
    Posts
    1,783
    Originally posted by Siroth
    My point was whether Bajoran militia officers cannot be Starfleet officers. The archetype you mention is a Starfleet officer. Bajor is not a part of the Federation, and so has no real connection to Starfleet (not yet, at least). That being the case, Starfleet officers would not man Bajoran starships, yet we do know they have them. These Bajoran ships must be manned by Bajoran militia because that is the Bajoran equivalent of Starfleet. Are they forced to be soldiers because they are in the Bajoran militia? If that is the implication, then I think that's a problem, particularly since Kira seems to grown out of being a soldier. But then, I also admit that I haven't seen her stats in the NG.
    Siroth, as I pointed out in that other thread, it's not Starfleet Officer. The profession in question is Starship Officer. They can be Starfleet. They can be Romulan Star Navy. They can be Klingon Defense Force. They can even be Bajoran Militia. Just because all of the pictures in the section are folks from Starfleet doesn't mean that they're the only ones who can be in the profession.

    On the subject of the other thread, my behavior there was regrettable and uncalled for. It'd been one of those weekends, but I shouldn't have taken it out on you. I apologize.
    Patrick Goodman -- Tilting at Windmills

    "I dare you to do better." -- Captain Christopher Pike

    Beyond the Final Frontier: CODA Star Trek RPG Support

  9. #144
    Join Date
    Sep 1999
    Location
    MetroWest, MA USA
    Posts
    2,590
    Anyone can be a starship officer.

    My Bridgetown game had a smuggler who was not a member of Starfleet yet used the Starship Officer profession.

  10. #145
    Originally posted by Phantom
    Everyone seemed so upset that I, or anyone else for that fact, had the audacity to compare the Great New Game to D&D.
    I have been told by people here that I "should grow a thicker skin" and the I should "relax."
    The comment you refer to was not an insult aimed at you. It was a statement of how angry people around here get when trek is compared to D20. A rather useless state of affairs as far as I am concerned, I like both games equally. And given the success of D&D I think it would be a bit of an honour to be compared to such a venerable, and much loved, system and world. After all D&D started it all.
    I checked, but I didn't actually write this while in one of my apparent delusional states...

    I agree completely. I find it incredible how people treat CODA skeptics here. It is as if not liking CODA is sacrilege or betrayal, as if I've revealed myself as a devil-worshipper or have betrayed my country or some such. And by the same people, no less, who then tell me to cool off and not take things so seriously...

    The notion that I might have been excited about CODA Trek and then be genuinely disappointed by it is just not an option. No, if I don't like it then it's obviously either because I'm not willing to give it a fair chance or else it's because I was biased against it even before I bought the PG (one might wonder why I bought it then, but we'll just overlook that since it actually supports my disappointment and doesn't fit the 'conspiracy against CODA' theory'...).

    After my disappointment at reading the rules, I then expect other people will be equally disappointed, so I post a review. When I then continue to respond to answers in a thread I began, I'm accused of being biased or ignorant of the rules or both. When I then quote rules and point out things I consider to deserve criticism in them (thereby committing the worse sin of knowing the rules - how dare I?), I'm met with implications that question my sanity... The idea that I might actually care to respond in a thread I started or not like and wish to respond when people attack me is apparently a completely alien and incomprehensible concept

    It's as if I have every right to disagree and practice freedom of speech, but only as long as I do it elsewhere...

  11. #146
    Originally posted by PGoodman13
    Siroth, as I pointed out in that other thread, it's not Starfleet Officer. The profession in question is Starship Officer. They can be Starfleet. They can be Romulan Star Navy. They can be Klingon Defense Force. They can even be Bajoran Militia. Just because all of the pictures in the section are folks from Starfleet doesn't mean that they're the only ones who can be in the profession.
    You're missing my point or else I'm not making mine. You're arguing rules while I'm arguing their consequences. In short, we're not having the same conversation. Let me try to rephrase.

    Yes, Kira is not a Starfleet officer. She is in the Bajoran militia. However, I don't think she should be a soldier anymore, although I think she was one during the resistance.

    But what if we took another Bajoran, a younger one who entered the militia after the Occupation. Would this person be a Soldier? He could be, but what if he studied, say, to work with a Warp Core? After all, Bajorans have starships. Would he be a Starship Officer or a Soldier? He should be a Starship Officer, I think (and you seem to agree with me).

    By the same notion I think Kira, in CODA game terms, is no longer a Soldier. She was once, but when she was assigned to DS9, she stopped being one and became a Command Officer instead. Was she trained for this? No, but she had the qualifications, or she wouldn't be a Major (and later Colonel) in the Bajoran Militia. She has genuine command authority in that organization.

    So what's my problem? My problem is that some people argue that the same is true for Odo. I don't agree with that since Odo never had any formal training as a Soldier - he has no background as a soldier. He was 'raised' by Mora Pol in a science lab until he left and was made a 'mediator' on Terok Nor (now DS9) by the Cardassians.

    What does that make him? Some say Soldier and refuse to consider he might be a Starship Officer, yet he never had any training for either of them until he began his career as a Constable. That being the case, I would rather put him in the profession that fits him best, and looking at the Professional Abilities that looks to me to be Starship Officer/Security rather than Soldier. That he is still cast as a Soldier seems to imply to me that people in the Bajoran Militia cannot be Starship Officers. If that is correct, then I disagree with it.

    On the subject of the other thread, my behavior there was regrettable and uncalled for. It'd been one of those weekends, but I shouldn't have taken it out on you. I apologize.
    Noted and accepted. Nobody is perfect and since I know just how much it bites to admit it (as I did in that other thread only yesterday), I make it a point to accept apologies from people. After all, I would want them to extend me the same courtesy.

  12. #147
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Brockville, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    4,394
    Your just learning the same thing that I did when I got beat about the head and shoulders when I stated my thoughts when the game first came out. And they were much more positive then your review.

    And now I have been accused of carrying on a "months long grudge" because I have reposted my ideas here. As the saying goes "you just can't win."

    Well, I better shut up now, before I offend someone else today. I've reached my quota.

  13. #148
    Join Date
    Sep 1999
    Location
    MetroWest, MA USA
    Posts
    2,590
    I think everyone has said everything they have to say and the circles the conversation is going in are becoming dizzying.

    [If anyone disagrees or feels this is inappropriate, feel free to reopen a new thread or Private Message Don, Gan Gurden, and/or me.]
    AKA Breschau of Livonia (mainly rpg forums)
    Gaming blog 19thlevel

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •