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Thread: A not entirely positive review of CODA... (very long!)

  1. #31
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    Originally posted by Phantom
    I think I've been insulted. (shrug)

    I guess the message is clear, if you don't have anything good (even minutely negative) don't say anything. At least here in Dec. country.
    No Phantom, you haven't been insulted.

    My post was directed at Siroth's post(s). I've stated my opinion on his review. I didn't elaborate, because I really couldn't be bothered to pick out every thing he said and how it came across to me. In part because it would have led to a hair-splitting contest and a debate of form instead of content ("If you meant X you should have said Y." "I said Z, which IMO is basically the same as Y." "No, it's not because Z also expresses..." etc. ad nauseum), in part because nothing in it struck me as interesting enough to start a debate (hence the last line of my post) and finally because I knew that somebody would try to explain where they thought Siroth's review had failed.

    If you're really that drawn to projecting yourself into the role of the misunderstood, ostracized und mistreated underdog, try the political threads in the General Forum. Because there no matter what you say, somebody is probably gonna flame you for it.

    Joe
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    "You know this roleplaying thing is awfully silly, let's just roll the dice." - overheard during a D&D 3E game.

  2. #32
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    Because there no matter what you say, somebody is probably gonna flame you for it.
    Except for maybe the silly episode game thread (thank goodness for silly games!)

    EDIT: post edited to include the word "episode". The game really isn't about being silly (perhaps less serious than some GC threads), but more about episodes from sci-fi & fantasy series.

  3. #33
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    Interesting... On many points I agree with Siroths 'opinion' of the CODA system. On other points I disagree. Remember - we are all entitled to an opinion.

    Yes - I think it is very similair to D20, but I just found the rules easier to understand because of it.

    Yes - I think the layout of the Players Book was badly done, but not that bad that I could not understand it.

    Yes - I think the skills are better done than ICON but that could be because I understood them very quickly because of 'some similarities to 'another' game system.

    I think the CODA rules just make characters more 'specialised'. I do not see this as a bad thing.

    The 1000 XP was a bit strange at first, but giving players a 'pick' every 200XP can be an option. The GM can decide to do this instead, showing how characters can develop overtime instead of in one 'hit'. (NOTE - not having read the Narrator's Book fully I am unsure if there are options like this listed.)

    I have never liked the use of the 'Wild Die', especially with a D6. The changes of failing badly or succeeding well happen too often.

    ICON was\ is a good system. CODA is a good system. I personally think D20 is a good system.

    The formatting with the original posts was a problem but I was interested in reading someone else's 'opinion' so read the lot.

    But all that having been said, you will either love or hate CODA. Once I have developed a few characters and run \ played in some sessions I'll let you know what my 'opinion' is.
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  4. #34
    Wow! I honestly didn't expect this much buzz on what I wrote. If this causes problems then I apologize to the moderators and the board in general. However, people have made a few points, particularly those who like CODA and so, obviously, respond negatively to my comments.

    1. Some have drawn my motives for this review into question, which carries the implication that I'm a troll looking for a fight. First of all, if that was the case, please trust that the moderators would have thrown me off. Secondly, it should hopefully be obvious that my knowledge of ICON demonstrates a genuine interest in Trek RPG. Few people indeed sit down and write lengthy reviews like mine just to annoy people, and I did find some support for some of my comments... Besides, it is not very polite to automatically suggest that the other person isn't being honest just because you don't like what he says, methinks...

    2. No, posting a negative review on a pro-CODA may not seem wise, but then where should I take criticism of CODA? And given the topic name I chose, people were certainly warned in advance and could have steered clear...

    3. Note to Lancer. You seem to be very angry with me over the things I said, but I think you (and some others, but you particularly) misunderstand my motives completely. If you like CODA then more power to you because CODA is not going to disappear just because I post negative comments about it. If anything it would have been so much easier for me if I did like CODA. Only I don't, and I don't think I should have to.


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Without even knowing jack about the NG a statement like "It is not in CODA" comes damn close to a lie - you don't know it, yet you state it as a fact. If that's not a lie it is at the very least a decption, maybe even an intentional one, sometimes known as wilful deceit.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You misunderstand my point here. This reference was made in no small part to the way experience works in CODA, as you may remember, and this pointed to the matter of 'monster slashing'. Like it or not, a system that uses xp similarly to D&D/d20, this is going to be an issue because players won't always know whether they get extra experience for killing every single little opponent.

    This is called 'monster slashing' or 'hack and slash'. It was not in ICON. It couldn't have been because the few xp in ICON left no room for it. In CODA there is room for it. Does that mean the Narrator is going to resort to 'monster slashing'? No, not necessarily, but even if he doesn't, the players won't know that, and 'killing those few more Rommies' is a reasonable excuse to kill them if you even think this might factor into the final xp for the group.

    In my own D&D group I've solved this by keeping xp secret from the players - they have no idea how much xp they have until I tell them they have enough to advance to another level. Sure, you could do this is CODA easily. In fact, I could sit down and fix lots of things I don't like in CODA. The problem is that I shouldn't - I'm not a game designer, and if I have to redesign the game, why bother paying for it in the first place? That was the point I was trying to make here.

    4. People think I'm too focused on similarlities between CODA and d20/3e, and don't acknowledge that ICON had similarities to older systems. Of course it did. I don't claim that ICON was all that original. But CODA is the successor to ICON, so I sat down expected to read 'ICON - the Next Generation'. Instead I got 'd20 lite' (in space), as somebody called it. Since I like ICON far more than d20, that was a major disappointment.

    5. In extention of that, D&D is a special case here. Why? Because D&D was the original RPG. I also awaited 3e with massive excitement, and I was hugely disappointed by it. Instead of taking the next step in RPG, it set back role-playing by at least a decade IMNSHO - it returned to the roots. To see other games emulate it makes it worse because RPG progress is being tossed out the window in favor of a game based on principles that are close to thirty years old. Of course, nobody has to agree with me, but class-based RPGs are just outdated IMO. It's time for skill-based games to replace them completely. Instead D&D brought back classes, levels, saves, HPs, and a horrible and hated magic system, and now all other games copies from this... But I shouldn't get into D&D here - this is not the board for it.

    6. I said that professions in CODA are more restrictive than overlays in ICON because I believe it. ICON gave you lists of skills in overlays, yes, but it was pretty easy to decode them into XP and DP (FYI, they all come in at 57 or 58 DP each, except for those that have been officially corrected...), so making up new ones or just choosing whatever you wanted was no problem. CODA doesn't give me that option since I'm restricted from seeing how the professions balance each other out - I'm forced to take the book's word for it, and I don't have the option to redesign them. That is more restrictive than ICON.

    7. Please acknowledge that I did say *some* positive things about CODA! Granted, they were not many, but it wasn't just all flames either.

    Last edited by Siroth; 10-07-2002 at 07:36 PM.

  5. #35
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    Originally posted by Dan Stack
    I'd ask perhaps that you trust the administration and moderators to keep the forum one where debate is welcome.

    If you (or anyone else) feels my initial responses were inadequate, I can be contacted via e-mail or private message. Dan Gurden and Don are also available for that purpose.
    Not at all Dan. I think all the moderators here do a great job. It is just that one or two, I don't think names are necessary, seem to take great pleasure in shooting down someone elses opinions when ever they get a chance. Siroth posted a legit opinion on the game, and all of a sudden someone let the pack loose. Calling someone "simple minded" because you don't happen to agree with him is not only uncalled for, but rude. I think the person who said that should look in the mirror, because he is showing his own intorlerance and ignorance.

    And no I don't insist on placing myself in the role of...How did you put it? Misunderstood, ostracized and mistreated under dog..." From your wording I simply thought you were speaking to both of us.

  6. #36
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    I'm not sure, but it seemed to me that the "simple minded" part had more to do with the review than the reviewer. I mean, you have to admitt that the review comes out as rather biased, and focused on the negative part. Well, that's what I though was meant with the "simple minded" qualifier ... ICBW ... IPAW (I probably am wrong ) given that I am not a native speaker .
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  7. #37
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    Originally posted by Siroth
    3. Note to Lancer. You seem to be very angry with me over the things I said, but I think you (and some others, but you particularly) misunderstand my motives completely. If you like CODA then more power to you because CODA is not going to disappear just because I post negative comments about it. If anything it would have been so much easier for me if I did like CODA. Only I don't, and I don't think I should have to.
    What made me a bit 'edgy' is that I had the impression that you weren't prepared to give CODA a fair chance because of the similarities you saw between CODA and D&D. That's all well and good for a first impression, but I don't think it should form the basis for such a lengthy review as yours.
    And just for the record: IMO 3e is the best incarnation of the D&D game ever. So I should have been happy by your constant comparison of the two games, shouldn't I? Well I wasn't because half of the time you applied a 'D&D filter' when you looked at CODA. I just don't think that's very fair, even if there may be some truth to it.

    Another thing that indeed made me angry was your repeated allegation of copying from D&D.
    Some of the folks who wrote CODA have been very helpfull to us roleplayers here on this board and I strongly feel that they deserve better than what is (as I read it) only a step away from a direct accusation of plagiarism.


    You misunderstand my point here. This reference was made in no small part to the way experience works in CODA, as you may remember, and this pointed to the matter of 'monster slashing'. Like it or not, a system that uses xp similarly to D&D/d20, this is going to be an issue because players won't always know whether they get extra experience for killing every single little opponent.

    This is called 'monster slashing' or 'hack and slash'. It was not in ICON. It couldn't have been because the few xp in ICON left no room for it. In CODA there is room for it. Does that mean the Narrator is going to resort to 'monster slashing'? No, not necessarily, but even if he doesn't, the players won't know that, and 'killing those few more Rommies' is a reasonable excuse to kill them if you even think this might factor into the final xp for the group.
    I still feel that without knowing what's in the NG any statement on how XP work in CODA is more or less a matter of speculation on your part. Just because D&D and CODA award experience that accumulates until a certain point at which you gain certain advancements for your character doesn't mean that you earn experience for the same things. I still fail to see why one should automaticaly lead to the the other.
    Yes, if a Narrator insists to award XP for killing Romulans/Klingons/Borgs/whatever he can do it - it's his game after all. But what you won't find in the NG is any rule for it!

    And just that there is room for a rule like that doesn't mean players will go ahead and kill whatever comes in front of their phasers, just because "we thought killing him might be worth a few XP". Maybe I have been lucky enough to find just the right players, but I haven't run into any situation like this in at least my last 10 years of roleplaying, maybe even longer, so I find such a situation mighty difficult to imagine.


    In fact, I could sit down and fix lots of things I don't like in CODA. The problem is that I shouldn't - I'm not a game designer, and if I have to redesign the game, why bother paying for it in the first place? That was the point I was trying to make here.
    And nobody is forcing you to redesign the game. You don't have to play CODA if you don't want to. But you can't expect the game designers to write the perfect game for you. A game might still be a good game, even if it's not for you.

    7. Please acknowledge that I did say *some* positive things about CODA! Granted, they were not many, but it wasn't just all flames either.
    Acknowledged! You did say some positive things about CODA. And the rest weren't flames from my POV. I just felt that your review was based on too many preconceptions like "it must be inflexible, because it's a class-system and as such outdated anyway", "Experience works just like in 3E so there must be kill-points", etc., instead of giving the game a chance.
    I still believe you "shot from the hip" instead of taking carefull aim; that's a treatment that IMO no game deserves, regardless of how you or I feel about it.

  8. #38
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    2. No, posting a negative review on a pro-CODA may not seem wise, but then where should I take criticism of CODA? And given the topic name I chose, people were certainly warned in advance and could have steered clear...
    Errrm .. for a start you could have named your thread "A not entirely negative review of CODA but still pretty negative alll things considered" ... or "A 95% negative review of CODA" ... that'd have been more like it .
    That said, I understand that you don't like CODA. Well, you're entitled to. I still don't understand what it brings you to post this review (and spend quite a lot of time writing it I expect). I mean, I didn't like ICON, I don't like d20 much (and I do like CODA although it could with a few improvements here and there) ... the fact is, I never posted a thread like "A 95% negative review of ICON". I didn't see the point. I sometimes wrote things like "ICON statistics are awful, anyone has any idea to remedy that?", as I was trying to find a solution to a problem I had with the game.
    I mean, you are right, we shouldn't have to fix things, we're doctors ... err, players, no bloody game designers Jim! But after all, we're here to play, aren't we? Is it better to moan about something you don't like -and that the games designers should have got right- during the whole session, or to fix it and get on with it? Mind you, you are lucky, you now have 2 games to chose from to play Star Trek (even 4 if we count FASA and GURPS)!

    Granted, lately games seem to have more and more things that should be fixed ... I don't know, maybe it's me getting older, maybe it's the gaming industry that tends to produce better looking but less "bug-free" games ...
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  9. #39
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    Originally posted by Calcoran
    Granted, lately games seem to have more and more things that should be fixed ... I don't know, maybe it's me getting older, maybe it's the gaming industry that tends to produce better looking but less "bug-free" games ...
    Ohh I don't think it's your age in itself, but rather the experience with RPGs that age has brought you. I guess the more you play, the clearer defined your ideas about what makes a good game become. OTOH there have been a few games lately that don't suffer from the "nice looking but full of bugs" problem: Silver Age Sentinels, BtVS RPG and LOTR, which IMHO has a lot less bugs than CODA.

    I must admit my first impression of CODA Trek wasn't exactly glowing either. My first thought was "this is like an assembly kit with half of the instructions missing". This forum here has done a lot to fill this gap, so I can't be certain how I would feel about CODA if I had just sat down with the rulebook and tried to run a game, but this game has grown on me steadily. All it took was a little time to discover the good things about this game.

    Still, for some time I was suspecting that Coda Trek players and this forum were used as "beta testers" for LOTR and considering that the later seems to have fewer bugs, maybe that's not so far from the truth.

  10. #40
    When i first saw DD 3rd ed i told my DM this looks just like ICON trek and showed him the rules.
    Garet

  11. #41
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    I dunno...I think it's just me, but since finally jumping up and down in the store when I got my hot little hands on the CODA book, I've been...well, disappointed.

    Don't get me wrong...I want to like CODA. I desperately want to like it, because ICON is dead, and CODA is the way forward, it seems.

    But there's something about it...maybe it's the layout of the book, I guess. The thing is, I've been role-playing for nearly 20 years, and I've gotten my head around more game systems than I care to remember, but I can't for the life of me figure out even how to create a character in CODA.

    I don't think I'm entirely stupid, but I literally spent two days, for about 5 - 6 hours each day with sheets of paper and a calculator, trying to create a Starfleet captain. I got the basics down - race, profession, etc. I even didn't do too badly on the basic skills...then I hit the advancements.

    After spending hours flicking back and forth between about 4 different chapters, I gave up. I flicked thru a bit of the rest of the book, desperately trying to find some stats on starships and how the space combat system worked.

    And I got a little message something along the lines of: "Starship combat is covered in the narrator's guide."

    I disagree with Siroth on the d20 thing - I don't think CODA is much like d20 (though I admit I really don't understand CODA!), but I do think Decipher is pulling a "WotC": "Here, buy a game for $70 Au. Oh, and here...have the other half of it for another $70."

    ICON had everything in the one book - all of it. You could run an entire campaign from the core rules, without purchasing anything else, and I'm extremely disappointed Decipher is making me buy another book just so I can run starship combat - and that's all it will be. I've been refereeing for 20 years, and I don't need advice on how to referee...I just need starship combat rules!!

    *Sigh* I'm not ranting against the guys who put CODA together - I know they're a very skilled bunch of designers, but I strongly suspect there's been a fair whack of corporate heavy-handedness involved in the way it's been done.

    So where to with CODA for me? Well, the book is going on the shelf with Torg, Rifts, MERP and quite a few other RPGs which had great promise, and which I bought with high hopes but was sorely disappointed in. It will sit there, as part of my unused collection.

    And I won't be buying the Narrator's Guide...I'll be pulling out my ICON/LUG books, dusting them off and resurrecting the series.

    At least I won't have to worry about converting characters...
    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for others.

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  12. #42
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    Aldaron, do you think it would be any help if you just started a thread about the advancements or have you give up on Coda entirely? I am sure a lot of people would be willing to help you with any problems you have about Coda.


    As for having everything in one book: You are right about the advantage the Icon books provided by having everything in one book, but as soon as you wanted to start a TOS game after playing a TNG game it was either make up your own rules or buy another book.

  13. #43
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    Originally posted by Aldaron
    But there's something about it...maybe it's the layout of the book, I guess. The thing is, I've been role-playing for nearly 20 years, and I've gotten my head around more game systems than I care to remember, but I can't for the life of me figure out even how to create a character in CODA.

    I don't think I'm entirely stupid, but I literally spent two days, for about 5 - 6 hours each day with sheets of paper and a calculator, trying to create a Starfleet captain. I got the basics down - race, profession, etc. I even didn't do too badly on the basic skills...then I hit the advancements.

    After spending hours flicking back and forth between about 4 different chapters, I gave up.
    You know, I ran a Coda Trek game for four months or so before going on hiatus recently and we had little to no problem making characters. I would suggest taking a look at Patrick Goodman's Character Creation Example (cna't remember the URL right off the top of my head, but it ewas posted here as well). And, if you're interested, i could ven do a post explaining a pre-advanced character and how he was made.

    I disagree with Siroth on the d20 thing - I don't think CODA is much like d20 (though I admit I really don't understand CODA!), but I do think Decipher is pulling a "WotC": "Here, buy a game for $70 Au. Oh, and here...have the other half of it for another $70."
    Actually, such a practice goes back to the very begining of RPGs, Aldaron. Just look at 1st Edition AD&D. There was no way you could run a game properly without at least the three main core books...

    ICON had everything in the one book - all of it. You could run an entire campaign from the core rules, without purchasing anything else, and I'm extremely disappointed Decipher is making me buy another book just so I can run starship combat - and that's all it will be. I've been refereeing for 20 years, and I don't need advice on how to referee...I just need starship combat rules!!
    Hmm. I guess Starship design, Creature design, Alien creation, Information on hazards from radiation to falling and nebulae to subspace phenomena, Sector/Star System/Planet creation, and other stuff just wouldn't be of use...

    And I won't be buying the Narrator's Guide...I'll be pulling out my ICON/LUG books, dusting them off and resurrecting the series.
    That's kind of a shame, really. I've heard people who have been gaming for as long, if not longer than you or I who have said the NG is the best referee tool they have ever seen, bar none.

    Now, I'm not trying to scam you into spending more money or saying you have to buy the book. I just think you're giving the NG a short shrift it doesn't deserve.
    Former Decipher RPG Net Rep

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  14. #44
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    Personnally I like the 2-book approach. It allows me to hand over the PG to th players when they need a piece of info while keep all the "sensitive" info for myself (I prefer to obfuscate my inner game mechanics so as to surprise the players).

    I agree that the layout of the PG is bizarre, but I finally managed to create NPCs and convert PCs, and so far Coda has been a great improvement and a revival for our games.

    If anybody needs help, I'm sure the boards will be glad to

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  15. #45
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    I'm not sure if it's just presented or explained better, but when I made my first NPC characters for the Lord of the Rings RPG, I found the process very simple, flexible, and intuitive. The thing I love is I am able to make pretty much any kind of character I want, even within the individual orders, or by ignoring them completely (although this needs a tiny bit of fudging).

    Steve
    Drunken DM and the Speak with Dead spell: "No, I'm not the limed-over skeleton of the abbot, and no this special key in my boney fingers does not open the door to the secret treasury! ... Oh crap."

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