A not entirely positive review of CODA... (very long!)

[Lancer]

Steve, the actual character creation isn't so different from LOTR. It's more a problem of how the Trek PG is organized, i.e. the order of the chapters relevant to character creation. That the Starfleet Officers are a mix of 'basic profession' and 'elite profession' (which are explained a lot later in the book) doesn't help much either.
It's not too bad if you follow the 2-page character creation spread that has all the references to the chapters you need, but just opening the book on page 1 and reading along until you arrive at a finished character several chapters later isn't so easy with Coda Trek.

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Doug Burke



Hmm. I guess Starship design, Creature design, Alien creation, Information on hazards from radiation to falling and nebulae to subspace phenomena, Sector/Star System/Planet creation, and other stuff just wouldn't be of use...

For the amount of space taken up by the above sections they could have easily been incorporated into a single volume Core book. I agree with, I think it was Aldaron, I don't need to buy $70 CDN book to tell me how to GM a game. I've been doing it for sometime now.

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Calcoran
I'm not sure, but it seemed to me that the "simple minded" part had more to do with the review than the reviewer. I mean, you have to admitt that the review comes out as rather biased, and focused on the negative part. Well, that's what I though was meant with the "simple minded" qualifier ... ICBW ... IPAW (I probably am wrong ) given that I am not a native speaker .

I see. So, he is not simple minded. He just comes up with simple minded ideas, is that it? Big Difference! It is still an uncalled for remark. And so what if his review is biased, is there board law somewhere that says everyone here has to jump up-and-down proclaiming to all who will listen that Dec Trek is the greatest thing since electricity? Everyone else can post their sugar candy posts, why can't some of us post what we think? You ever think we are simply pointing out things, that if corrected will make a better game?

[Ineti]

Originally posted by Phantom
For the amount of space taken up by the above sections they could have easily been incorporated into a single volume Core book. I agree with, I think it was Aldaron, I don't need to buy $70 CDN book to tell me how to GM a game. I've been doing it for sometime now.

Ah yes, but... No RPG should cater to just experienced gamers and narrators. I like the two book set-up. When I run my next Trek game, I can tell the players all they need is the PG. They were bothered by the ICON books - there was more info in those books than they ever would need to play the game. I needed it all as a narrator, but they didn't.

The PG/NG separation is fine by me. I was brought up with the Player's Handbook / DMG from D&D, so I see no problem with what Decipher did with the Trek game.

[Doug Burke]

I've found the same thing happens in Trek, Steve.

Just as an example, one of my NPCs is a Vulcan who became a Healer on Vulcan for several years and then joined Starfleet to help with the wouded sure to come out of the Dominion War. He breaks down as shown below:

Species: Vulcan
Profession: Scientist
Elite Profession: Starship Medical Officer
Personal Development Package: Scientific Upbringing
Professional Development Package: Medical Doctor
Advancements: 10
Current Age: 80
Current Rank: Lieutenant JG

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

Originally posted by Phantom
For the amount of space taken up by the above sections they could have easily been incorporated into a single volume Core book. I agree with, I think it was Aldaron, I don't need to buy $70 CDN book to tell me how to GM a game. I've been doing it for sometime now.

As opposed to ICON, which basically required you to buy three different rule books, incorporating the same darned rules, just to have the source material for each setting. As far as the NG unnecessarily telling you how to run a game, it does far more than that. The sections on narrating may be redundant to you and I, but that isn't necessarily going to be the case for everyone who buys them. If you're going to try and attract new people to the hobby, you need to provide the tools they need to get started, which means that guidance on narration whether we like it or not. It would be foolish not to, as far as I'm concerned.

Sorry, I prefer the PG/NG setup. And I haven't found them that expensive. Only about £40 for both books (very roughly $80 |US). That said, GURPS: PD is actually a damn solid game and very good value. And cheaper.

I like CODA. More so than ICON in fact. My only qualm is the layout of the PG, which really is rather poor, IMHO. But, that's not a system problem.

Personally, I wasn't convinced by the XP thing, but having used it in play I do like it. And it is in no way, shape or form as rigid as D&D's. Nor is character creation. Or the professions. IMHO of course.

[Perrryyy]

I got shot down for suggesting this before, and I probably will again here too.

I wasn't all that thrilled with the NG.

As someone who's always been the player and never the narrator, I find the whole narrating task intimidating.

I personally think my writing/narrating skills aren't up to par, and have a hell of a time coming up with story ideas. The NG did a nice 3-act model story, but the idea itself seemed to just "poof" on to the page.

I'd like a primer on where to get story ideas. It wouldn't even have to be a book, or an official Decipher product. A small short sweet fan-based PDF would make me a happy camper.

Just something to help me open my eyes to know where to look for ideas, or how to rip-off a book/novel/world even for ideas without copying the book. (The second half of that sentence kinda answers my dilemma, doesn't it? Oh well )

[Calcoran]

Originally posted by Phantom
I see. So, he is not simple minded. He just comes up with simple minded ideas, is that it? Big Difference! It is still an uncalled for remark. And so what if his review is biased, is there board law somewhere that says everyone here has to jump up-and-down proclaiming to all who will listen that Dec Trek is the greatest thing since electricity? Everyone else can post their sugar candy posts, why can't some of us post what we think? You ever think we are simply pointing out things, that if corrected will make a better game?

There is no board law saying you can't post a biased review on the boards. Nor is there any board law proclaiming you can't say this or this review is biased.
Posting a biased review is not necessarily insulting, saying a review is biased needs not necessarily to be taken as an insult. Of course you are pointing things out that you'd like changed. But what if some, or even the majority do not want them changed? Should they just keep quiet?

And before you ask, there is no board law preventing you from saying that you find a post saying a review is biased insulting I guess. And no, there is no board law saying I can't post something saying Siroth should not feel insulted (even if it seems I didn't need to ) ...

All right, now I'm just waiting for a moderator who's going to say there is a law against me posting this kind of post which says there is no law.

[Joe Dizzy]

"There is no law." - alternate take not used in The Matrix

After all, this is the internet-age.

Joe

[KillerWhale]

Perryy, as one who has to run adventures once a week, I like your idea of adventure hooks... That would sure be handy. I hope the future DecTrek products include some adventures seeds for us to elaborate on.

I would have also liked to see some DecTrek campaigns, but apparently this won't see the light of day, too bad.

[AllenS]

1.) Even with the organization of the Player's Guide, which could use some work, I had created a character for CODA Trek within a half-hour after opening the book for the first time.

2.) I spent a lot more for the ICON rulebooks than I have for the CODA books. I vastly prefer the "all series in one book" format than the "buy another whole rulebook just for the info on DS9" format.

3.) I like the PG/NG split for reasons stated above by others; I can give the PG to players to use and still have the book with MY rules in it when running.

4.) My players find CODA much more intuitive to use than ICON ever was and feel it is even more flexible than ICON. And they all hated that Drama Die.

5.) The experience system in CODA does not reward you for killing Romulans, or anyone else. It is a story oriented system. Making an automatic assumption that because an experience system uses numbers with three or four digits it must be just like D&D's is intellectual laziness no matter how many big words the person uses. of course, if killing the enemy is the point of the story (such as in a Dominion War setting) than you might get points for that..IF that was the only way to solve the problem. But that would be poor adventure plotting, imo.

Obligitary apology for remarks omitted. Anyone can have any opnion they want, but I will always challenge uninformed opinions.

Allen

[Siroth]

First of all, to Calcoran and Phantom: If anyone should be insulted by Calcoran's "simple minded" comment, then it probably should have been me. So why didn't I respond? Well, there were two possibilities, namely either that whoever said it was a troll, in which case it was better to ignore him (I haven't played D&D so many years without learning how to deal with trolls, and contrary to popular belief flaming them is not the best idea ), or, as seems to be case here, that the poster was annoyed by my obvious dislike for CODA. If he likes CODA, then the latter is understandable. It may not excuse rudeness, but then we're all people here, and I'll admit that my review was harsh.

This brings me to my second point. Many have suggested the tone I used was too hostile or that I simply wasn't objective enough. Objectivity is a fine ideal, but in truth it is actually something I prefer _not_ to see in a review - I'd rather have the reviewers brutally honest opinion than anything else, because in the end that's what it comes down to. Of course, for such a review to be useful, you need to know something about the reviewer. That is why I mentioned my RPG history with various games, including my admiration for ICON and dislike of d20, so that people would know where I was coming from.

On the issue of one or two (or more) core books, I'm not so decided myself... ICON's books were great, but it is true that books containing GM information is bothersome to players. As a GM I actually prefer my players do not read those rules. On the other hand, I don't agree with those people who argue that the two-book approach is better because you get all the series in that... Granted, I haven't read the NG for CODA, but I honestly can't see how you're going to fit all of the information that is lacking into that one book without losing out on background material, especially given how much is not in the PG.

Someone (Lancer, I think, but I apologize in case I'm mistaken) argued that ICON offered less freedom in character creation than CODA and forced skills upon characters in the Overlays. For one thing, you can decode those into DPs (or even XPs) since you know how much those cost. Compare this to the Odo thing, and you'll note that given his ICON stats, he fits into *none* of the Overlays in any of the books - any and all overlays in both the DS9 and TNG give some skill that Odo doesn't have! So did they make him? Well, since the argument was that ICON was more restrictive, I'm assuming the person making knows ICON, perhaps even has the TNG core book himself. If he does, please look at page 77 and acknowledge that ICON had an 'Advanced Character Creation' option that allows the player to build any character he wants to with 125 DP. Yes, it's complex, but it's a true option and, more importantly, it is there. I don't see it in CODA

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Siroth
First of all, to Calcoran and Phantom: If anyone should be insulted by Calcoran's "simple minded" comment, then it probably should have been me.

That was the point I was trying to convey.

As to 40 pounds sterling being OK, that is (at todays rates) $99.75 CDN per book+15%=$ 114.71 or over $228 just to play the game with full rules. Wow, what a bargin! Guess I should thank the Great Bird of the Galaxy that I only had to pay $160 for my set. If you like spending 100 bucks for a book more power to ya I guess I am the only one around here who thinks that is excessive (both sets of prices). Especially when everything that is good in NG could have been put into the PG.

[AllenS]

This "discussion" has past the point of being even remotely useful.

[KillerWhale]

If he does, please look at page 77 and acknowledge that ICON had an 'Advanced Character Creation' option that allows the player to build any character he wants to with 125 DP. Yes, it's complex, but it's a true option and, more importantly, it is there. I don't see it in CODA

O ye of little faith...

Please, there is absolutely nothing preventing you from creating your own professions and development packages, or even taking the bonuses offered by the professions and giving them to the character just as you would use development points. I don't see the point (pun not intended).

Coda has a lot to offer - if you are willing to invest the time of course.