A not entirely positive review of CODA... (very long!)

[C5]

Originally posted by KillerWhale
O ye of little faith...

Please, there is absolutely nothing preventing you from creating your own professions and development packages, or even taking the bonuses offered by the professions and giving them to the character just as you would use development points. I don't see the point (pun not intended).

Coda has a lot to offer - if you are willing to invest the time of course.

Though I'm a strong supporter of CODA, I have to agree here that the system lacks some information in this area, since for instance, while the NG contains detailed data on how to create new alien species, there are none to be found as far as professions are concerned (only some remark that if you want to create one, you can - well that's helpful...).

However, since the NG establishes how to calculate the picks cost of a species, it think it is quite possible to reverse engineer the character creation process to find how much picks a 0 advancements character is worth. The only trouble would come from the species cultural skills, wich depend on the INT carac.

And I understand some people may not be willing to invest the time in CODA while other systems may need less modifications to satisfy the GM and players. That said, I never encountered so far a RPG where the GM hadn't developped his set of house rules.

[Aldaron]

Okay, okay guys...

You've convinced me to give it another shot - I didn't realise the depth of support for CODA from experienced RPers - as they say: "That many experienced role-players can't be wrong!"

After reading thru the thread (and with the help of Roy's (?) character generator, I pulled out the book again and created my wife's ICON character, Dr Sito Rana (Bajoran CMO of the USS Intrepid, and older sister of the late Sito Jaxa), in CODA.

It was a bit of mucking about, but eventually I got the stats listed out (though I'm still not sure I've done it correctly). Even so, she does look good on paper...and not this weekend, but next, we're going to give it a shot with a 'test' episode.

Wish me luck!

[Calcoran]

Originally posted by Siroth
First of all, to Calcoran and Phantom: If anyone should be insulted by Calcoran's "simple minded" comment, then it probably should have been me.
(snip)

Just wanted to make sure we all agreed the words "simple minded" did <I>not</I> originate from me . Someone posted them, Phantom found them offensive, and I committed my first mistake by jumping in and saying that maybe not ...

Back to the topic ... and ... oh well, I guess I have nothing to say that hasn't been said at one point or another in this discussion.
Somehow, the general impression I get from your review, Stiroth, is that you were disappointed by the book either through previews or with the first chapters, and then that you decided the book was bad and read the rest in that mindset ... and posted the review to vent. I think it's a pity, because I feel you didn't really give CODA a chance.
Well, ICB utterly W of course.

[Calcoran]

Originally posted by Aldaron
Okay, okay guys...

You've convinced me to give it another shot - I didn't realise the depth of support for CODA from experienced RPers - as they say: "That many experienced role-players can't be wrong!"

After reading thru the thread (and with the help of Roy's (?) character generator, I pulled out the book again and created my wife's ICON character, Dr Sito Rana (Bajoran CMO of the USS Intrepid, and older sister of the late Sito Jaxa), in CODA.

It was a bit of mucking about, but eventually I got the stats listed out (though I'm still not sure I've done it correctly). Even so, she does look good on paper...and not this weekend, but next, we're going to give it a shot with a 'test' episode.

Wish me luck!

We all do, Aldaron !

[Lancer]

Originally posted by Aldaron
Wish me luck!

As one of my university profs always said before a test: "Luck has nothing to do with it, so I wish you sucess. ...And a little luck."

I am sure you will do just fine. After all you are not "simple minded".

[Silverthorne]

First of all, to Calcoran and Phantom: If anyone should be insulted by Calcoran's "simple minded" comment, then it probably should have been me. So why didn't I respond? Well, there were two possibilities, namely either that whoever said it was a troll, in which case it was better to ignore him (I haven't played D&D so many years without learning how to deal with trolls, and contrary to popular belief flaming them is not the best idea ), or, as seems to be case here, that the poster was annoyed by my obvious dislike for CODA. If he likes CODA, then the latter is understandable. It may not excuse rudeness, but then we're all people here, and I'll admit that my review was harsh.

I thought you had to "Flame" trolls to kill them...

((I play quite a few systems different systems.. or should I say I have to run them. D&D, GURPS, Star Wars-WEG, Star Wars-D20, Coda-LOTR, Coda-Trek, Anime, DC, Marvel, Elfquest))

[PGoodman13]

Originally posted by Doug Burke
I would suggest taking a look at Patrick Goodman's Character Creation Example (cna't remember the URL right off the top of my head, but it ewas posted here as well).

I do need to do layout on that example. In the meantime, you can find my Character Generation Summary on this page of my oh-so-out-of-date website. The RTF version of the chargen example is here, with the sidebar it references here.

Someday I really must do something about the mess that is my home on the web....

[Joe Dizzy]

Despite common internet wisdom, somebody telling you that "this sucks" is not necessarily a troll. I don't consider you, Siroth, a troll either. Although you essentially said the same thing about the PG, as I did about your review.

I've read your review, I've found it mostly worthless and said so.

A harsh judgement + no interest in explaining one's opinion does not equal the wish to stir up trouble.

If you were actually interested in why I found so little of value in it, you could have asked.
If you prefer not to hear what I've said, tehn don't comment on it.

Callling me a troll is just a cheap way of trying to look superiour.

Joe

[Calcoran]

And here I am, jumping in the middle of the battlefield in order to get shot at again!
Joe, Siroth said that you were "either a Troll, or more probably, just someone annoyed by his (Siroth's) review". He has not <I>actually</I> called you a Troll, has he? Unless you really want to state the reverse

[Dan Stack]

[Moderator Hat On]

I think there is actually some reasonable discusison here - pros and cons of Coda, with an opportunity to explain what is disliked about Coda and possibly remedy that.

Let us try to focus on that and less on speculating on motives.

If anyone made any comments that you feel require moderator action, send Dan Gurden or me a private message.

[Moderator Hat Off]

If desired, I may have some time this weekend to do a walkthrough of a character creation - we just made some new characters for our game so I still have all the rough scraps of paper we used.

[Don Mappin]

Wow. Quite the thread.

Nice to see the usual suspects stirring up trouble again. Regarding a few points:

1) I won't comment on the review itself or some of its assumptions regarding the design process. That'd be too lengthy. I'll simply refer back to my stock reply of "you're selling Coda short if you simply view/think of it as a d20 rip-off." In my opinion (and I've played a lot of games over the years), it's not a "copy" of d20. Your mileage will vary, obviously.

2) I think negative reviews are fine. The content of the reviews will show plainly if the author is educated in the system, gave it a fair shot, of if their perceptions are colored by any bias in the writing. Why should anyone playing Coda, and enjoying themselves with it, even care about a negative review? I don't. (Okay, a little.)

3) Two book format. This is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. There were legions of people upset with the Icon one-book format and the reprinting of rules. They wanted desperately a two-book format. Now they have one. Personally, two-book format is superior for several reasons: it lowers the barrier for entry for a group--they can purchase one, cheaper, book specific to their needs and compacts the information in two useful packages. In my experience at the table the Narrator spends most of his/her time in the NG and players in the PG looking things up.

4) Layout of the book. Read my lips: I think the organization of the book stinks. Most people I've spoken with think the organization of the books stinks. I think the playtesters even commented on the organization of the chapters. I agree that there is too much page-flipping. However, you need to remember that part of the book process was done months after the design and writing was done. So, while a valid complaint, I'm not too sure you can entirely hold the presentation of the material against Coda. I mean, had Decipher printed the entire book on 5"x7" wax paper with no color we wouldn't have had any control over that.

5) Group Hug. Everyone. Now.

[PGoodman13]

Originally posted by Dan Stack
If desired, I may have some time this weekend to do a walkthrough of a character creation - we just made some new characters for our game so I still have all the rough scraps of paper we used.

I can speak for no one else, Dan, but I should be quite interested in seeing your character generation example, and seeing how it compares to mine. I'm always curious about differences in assumptions from one GM to another, and how certain situations are handled from game to game.

[tmutant]

Originally posted by Perrryyy

Just something to help me open my eyes to know where to look for ideas, or how to rip-off a book/novel/world even for ideas without copying the book. (The second half of that sentence kinda answers my dilemma, doesn't it? Oh well )

Note to Perrryy:

Try the Story seeds thread in the Narrators Forum. Also have a Campaign seeds thread. Also nothing wrong with completely ripping off books, tv shows, comic books, movies, etc. Don't sell yourself short, Perrryyy. I personally like to feed my players rope til they hang themselves.

End of note to Perrryyy.


I like Coda. The layout of the player guide is a bit trying, but it is playable, and emphasis is on good roleplaying, not hack and slash.

If someone likes ICON over CODA, more power to them. Amazon still has stuff, and some ICON-o-philes around here can huddle around and come up with more stuff.

Beyond that, relax folks, it's just a game. More have fun. Less argue. That's the point.

[Novalar]

Originally posted by Don Mappin
Wow. Quite the thread.

3) Two book format. This is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. There were legions of people upset with the Icon one-book format and the reprinting of rules. They wanted desperately a two-book format. Now they have one. Personally, two-book format is superior for several reasons: it lowers the barrier for entry for a group--they can purchase one, cheaper, book specific to their needs and compacts the information in two useful packages. In my experience at the table the Narrator spends most of his/her time in the NG and players in the PG looking things up.

I like the two books as well. I do not remember a lot of screaming when 3rd Ed D20 came out? I feel you get more for your money.

4) Layout of the book. Read my lips: I think the organization of the book stinks....

5) Group Hug. Everyone. Now. [/B]

Point 4 - What Don said!

Point 5 - I don't think my arms are big enough...

Also - your 3.2a vers character sheet looks great!

[Siroth]

Do I think CODA is a 'bad d20 rip-off'? No, I don't because I think CODA is actually better than d20, I just think it is also inferior to ICON.

So, do I think CODA copies, shamelessly or otherwise, from d20? Yes I do. I see lots and lots of similiarities, and d20 is older than CODA. CODA just improves upon the 'original' (I say it like that since I have trouble calling d20 truly original... It has a few new things, but still builds heavily on princples close to thirty years old).

However, whether a copy is better than the original or not, it is still a copy... And CODA is still not as good a game as I think it could and should have been.

Some have said I don't give CODA a chance... Well, I gave it enough of a chance to buy the PG, even after my own Narrator flamed it heavily! That's more chances than I give most RPGs - RPGs are getting pricey!