A not entirely positive review of CODA... (very long!)

[Phantom]

Originally posted by aelius
2. As to Odo being a Soldier, that makes perfect sense. In the professional development section there are packages listed for each profession. One of the packages under Soldier is Law Enforcement Officer. This package contains the base skills that a cop would need. Also, saying that cops don't need weapons skills in their profession because Odo did not use weapons doesn't make sense. Odo had an edge most cops don't, so he did not buy the weapons skills that are available to Law Enforcement Officers and instead focused on the investigative side of his profession. This is perfectly in keeping with both the rules and the setting.

Hmmm, you are right about the professional development thind, I still think that law enforcement should be different from soldier. They both go through entirely different training. Unless of course you are talking a police state dictatorship.

[Aldaron]

Seems to me the problem purely comes down to an interpretation of a word. Siroth is interpreting the title "Soldier" literally - as in a person trained to make war, whereas it's a catch-all that covers just about anyone who would do a job requiring both physical activity along with the chance of a fight!

In a way, this reminds me of the fights over the "Thug" GM class in d20 Star Wars. I've seen flame-wars over the use of the term "Level 4 Thug" when describing stormtroopers: "They're not thugs! They're professional soldiers!"

Like here, people seemed to miss the fact it was just a label - "Warrior" might have been a better choice for SW (as it was for 3rdEd D&D), just as...I dunno: "Action Specialist" or "Enforcer" might have been a better choice than "Soldier".

But is is just a title.

[Siroth]

Originally posted by AllenS
I don't see anything in the book that says that you can't. Of course, Don may have inside information that I do not (and obviously does).

You're overlooking what I quoted from the errata above, which was:

{B]Q: Can a character ever select/purchase a second base profession?
A: No. A character only has one base profession. Characters may purchase as many Elite Professions as they qualify for, as per the rules.[/B]

Go and take a look at the errata thread Don Mappin has here. You'll see it's a direct quote. Yes, the character can take as many elite professions (and only elite professions!) as he wants to, but he cannot have more than two that are active at any one time. See PG p.155 under the heading 'Restrictions on Multiple Professiosn'. It now seems this applies solely to elite professions though the book does actually mention base professions while on the subject as well.

So, if a GM wanted to allow multiple basic professions as long as any prereq's were met (if any), they have precedent in the CODA system for doing so.

Obviously I can modify the rules and add all the house rules I like to fix problems I see. However, I don't like doing that. I wrote lengthy additional rules for 2e AD&D for that purpose, and it's no fun at all.

Besides, I paid for a complete RPG (and it wasn't exactly cheap for just one book), so shouldn't all this have been sorted out before release? I mean, if I was going to sit down and design rules, why would I bother with CODA at all? I could just start off with whatever old RPG as a template and then write my own complete RPG from scratch. There is a reason why I don't do that...

[Siroth]

Originally posted by Capt Daniel Hunter
I disagree. He is not a starship officer. And neither is Kira for that matter. Their training and experience is totally different to that of a starship officer. Worf and your other examples trained as starship officers. Odo did not.

Neither did Icheb or Seven of Nine on Voyager, yet they both still performed important functions, particularly Seven who was brought into the crew and become one of the senior officers... What should she be then? Or how about Neelix for that matter?

So Odo was on a starship. So what? So was Guinan. Being on a starship doesn't make you a starship officer.

Being on one, no. Serving as an active crewmember on one, yes. Odo has flown several Runabouts over the course of the show, and he has had important duties on the Defiant at times. That doesn't count for anything? Besides, he didn't spend that much time on Bajor - he was taken to Terok Nor (DS9) and set to investigate for the Cardassians because he was a neutral between the Bajorans and the Cardassians. He was only brought into the Bajoran militia when the Cardassians left. Doesn't this suggest, then, that he should start out as a Cardassian officer rather than a Bajoran soldier? He certainly did not fight in the resistance!

Sisko et al were trained as starship officers. Odo was not. Soldier is, IMHO, probably the easiest profession to fit Odo into (though I actually think a fair argument could be made for Rogue - rogues don't need to be on the wrong side of the law after all). Still, a larger selection of professions would have been better, since none of them really seem to fit Odo exactly. I still think Soldier is the closest fit though. The description of Starship Officer doesn't even begin to describe Odod. And you're forgetting the profession is what a character starts as. It's just a base profession, and doesn't stop him from expanding into starship duties or whatever the hell he wants. I still think you're taking the professions far too literally.

No, I'm thinking about what the consequences of him or Kira being Soldiers actually is rules-wise. Take a look at the Soldier professional abilities. You think they fit Odo?

Evasion certainly does... Favored Weapon obviously does not, though, since Odo doesn't use weapons. Reconnaissance sounds very appropriate until you becomes obvious that it is very tied to scouting the terrain and so. This would be relevant to a soldier, but not really to Odo - he never served on Bajor.

Survival Training is not inappropriate, but it doesn't really put Odo as a soldier either, and the same seems just as true of Battle-Hardened. Ground Tactics is again inappropriate, since Odo is hardly a warlord, and Lightning Strike is again unlikely given that Odo doesn't use weapons.

Combat Leader is somewhat appropriate since Odo is a security officer, but then we've not seen him lead forces into combat often either, and it certainly isn't what you'd associate with him (well, I wouldn't...).

Odo is first and foremost an investigator. Do any of those professional abilities aid in in that sense? It doesn't seem so to me. Let's consider the Starship Security Officer and look at his professional abilities.

First there is Security Ops, which deals with criminal investigation and forensic science. Seems highly appropriate to me. Then there is Security Protocols. It's difficult to say either way since we rarely actually security officers work operational procedures (since it's boring to watch), but I'd say it's appropriate. Just note how often Odo sits behind his desk working on reports... He actually seems to do that more than Worf or Tuvok ever did.

Then we have Tactical Officer. Okay, I'll admit that we rarely see Odo in this function. He was at Tactical on the Defiant in the last couple of episodes, but no, he is rarely at tactical, so that is not so appropriate. Physically Fit seems about as relevant as Survival Training did in the soldier's case, so that could go either way.

Finally there is Responsive which is about responding quickly to threats. That seems highly appropriate in Odo's case if you ask me, since he is constantly on the job.

Now, considering all that, which Profession is more appropriate for Odo?

Oh, and note: No, Odo did not train as a Starship Officer. That is true. However, he never trained as a Soldier either...

Again, you're assuming the professions lock you into developing your character a certain way. They don't.

According the rules and especially the errata (as I've quoted twice now), the rules make it so that a character can never enter command unless he begins the game as a Starship Officer. I think that is at least worth considering before you begin playing, and I certainly think it forces certain development choices on the player.

Then again, somebody might actually read this and consider the consequences and then change this in a subsequent errata.

Besides, you seem to imply that the professions are just mere starting points and have no importance beyond that. Well, if they are quite that open, then why bothering having them at all in the first place?

Would I like a wider selection of base professions? Probably, but then the PG tells us we can expect to see more professions in future supplements. And frankly, nothing stops you sitting down with the book and creating some of your own. Besides, the professions don't stop you picking whatever skills you want, sicne you can create both your own personal and professional development packages.

Yes, Odo can take the 'Law Enforcement' package as a Soldier. However, taking 'Investigator' as a Starship Officer is just as appropriate. Yes, he can choose whatever skills he likes. That is not the basis for taking one profession over another - the professional abilities are.

Do I have a problem with Odo being a Soldier because the term 'soldier' seems inappropriate? No, I argue against it because of what the rules say. Do you have a problem with him being a Starship Officer because the term seems inappropriate?

[Siroth]

Originally posted by Capt Daniel Hunter
No abilities are truly restricted. The rules allow you to develop your character any way you want. It merely costs you a little more if it's not a profession skill or ability. But buying innovative as often as you like counters that.

According to the errata, that is not quite correct. It states quite clearly that you cannot choose the Starship Duty professional ability with the Innovative edge, and since it also states that a character can have only one base profession, that means it is restricted solely to Starship Officers.

Since Starship Officer is a prerequisite for gaining command at some point, this means that being in command is available only to characters who start as Starship Officers.

So Kira is a Soldier? Well, according to the rules she can never reach a command position then, yet she did by the end of the show.... That doesn't look like the rules are very representative of the show to me, then.

And isn't this 'restriction' on Bajorans against being Starship Officers somewhat racist? I mean, Bajorans are actually not allowed to develop characters like that unless they serve in Starfleet or what? That seems rather peculiar to say the least...

Which is, IMHO, and good way of controlling munchkinism, as well as a bit more representative of real life. For instance, I'd have to spend way more free time learning how to fix a car engine, (I know nothing about mechanics) than I would have to to improve my cannulation ability, since one is part of my job and core experience, and one isn't. yet given enough time, I could become as proficient at my non professional skill as ay my professional skill.

This is true to some degree expect for the example I stated above. However, given just how expansive it is to take a professional skill outside your profession, I would say it makes taking them seem prohibitive to the point of restriction rather than merely impractical. I mean, it costs almost twice the number of picks, and if want to do it, you have to spend any and all picks from one advancement on it since you cannot hoard picks.

[AllenS]

I'm sure Decipher plans to release more books, and that some of those books will have new Professions, both elite and otherwise, including maybe a Police profession, maybe even a Constable profession. And when they do, Odo's stats (if such things exist) can be revised with these new professions, as Wizards did with the Star Wars characters when later books were released.

It's a new game. Give it time.

Allen

[Auxioruben]

This was posted a couple of days ago, but I want to comment

Originally posted by Siroth

Yes, I want randomness in my RPG, but I don't want some silly dice to be more important to success or failure than the actual skill level. I merely want the die to influence the result.

In fact, this is one of the things about CODA which is far superior to d20. Rolling 1d20 and 2d6 results in two different probability curves. Because of the range of the 1d20, randomness plays a large factor into the success of the roll, whereas with 2d6, your skill levels play a much larger role in the success of a test. Just my two cents

-JJ

[C5]

Just another point to be made about randomness : Siroth, you seem to consider that character creation is only dice-rolling. Well, it's a possibility, but I must point out that there's also another method where you actually put values into the differents attributes. And, for once, this rule is not that hard to reverse engineer to find that the sum of the values is 50, so you could decide to simply give 50 points to share amongst the different attributes, recovering ICON's simplicity.

[Aldaron]

Originally posted by Auxioruben
This was posted a couple of days ago, but I want to comment



In fact, this is one of the things about CODA which is far superior to d20. Rolling 1d20 and 2d6 results in two different probability curves. Because of the range of the 1d20, randomness plays a large factor into the success of the roll, whereas with 2d6, your skill levels play a much larger role in the success of a test. Just my two cents

-JJ

It's for this reason we've toyed with the idea of rolling 3d6 in our d20 games (D&D and Star Wars) rather than a single d20. We haven't actually tried it yet, but it's been up in the air for a while.

[Doug Burke]

I've tried to stay out of this one as much as possible, but certain statements made seem to require a more official response...

Originally posted by Siroth
According to the errata, that is not quite correct. It states quite clearly that you cannot choose the Starship Duty professional ability with the Innovative edge, and since it also states that a character can have only one base profession, that means it is restricted solely to Starship Officers.

Since Starship Officer is a prerequisite for gaining command at some point, this means that being in command is available only to characters who start as Starship Officers.

So Kira is a Soldier? Well, according to the rules she can never reach a command position then, yet she did by the end of the show.... That doesn't look like the rules are very representative of the show to me, then.

That's not true, Siroth. As several people have pointed out, the errata also says this on the subject of prereuisites: "Page 66, Command Officer, Prerequisites: Should read "Starship Duty or..." The same applies to the prerequisites listed for all Starship Officer elite professions." It's listed right below where it says you can't take Starship Duty with the Innovative edge.

Others have also pointed this out, as well. Aldaron's comments about a title being just that are also very appropriate in this situation. So basically, you could have Odo as a Soldier with the Security Officer elite profession and Kira could be a Soldier with the Command Officer elite profession.

If you're going to quote the errata to prove a point, make sure the same errata doesn't render your point invalid on the very next line.

And isn't this 'restriction' on Bajorans against being Starship Officers somewhat racist? I mean, Bajorans are actually not allowed to develop characters like that unless they serve in Starfleet or what? That seems rather peculiar to say the least...

What exactly is this supposed to mean? Bajorans can't be Starship Officers? One of the character archetypes is even a Bajoran Starship Officer! Or are you trying to say that Bajorans have to be Starship Officers? This is equally incorrect. There is no restriction on what professions any species can take.

BTW, Siroth, I find it interesting that you keep pounding the same quote from the Errata and bringing up the same comments about the "restriction" inherent in Coda. The fact that you are beating one aspect of the errata into the ground and ignoring others seems (to me, at least) to be indicative that you will not be changing your mind, no matter what response you get. If that is the case, you might consider just agreeing to disagree and moving on to another subject or even possibly a differen forum (as you have no interest in Coda other than to criticize it). We have plenty of boards here, so there should be something to catch your interest...

[Capt Daniel Hunter]

Originally posted by Siroth


This is true to some degree expect for the example I stated above. However, given just how expansive it is to take a professional skill outside your profession, I would say it makes taking them seem prohibitive to the point of restriction rather than merely impractical. I mean, it costs almost twice the number of picks, and if want to do it, you have to spend any and all picks from one advancement on it since you cannot hoard picks.

Expensive to take a non professional skill. You might think so but I don't. Two picks instead of one, yeah that's just horribly expensive.

Siroth, you might want to try reading all the rules (instead of bits and pieces) before you try telling us what they are, and what's wrong with them.

And for the umpteenth time, you are taking the title of soldier too literally. It is a catch-all title. The professional development packages include a path for law enforcement officers, a la Odo. Odo is NOT a starship offcier, he is a police officer. That is his job. Just because he has many of the skills he needs to work on a ship, doesn't make him a bleeding starship officer. For someone who has written such an extensive review, your grasp of the actual rules seems to be very poor. If you want to try and push for rules alterations, you might want to actually learn the darn rules first.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me you just have an axe to grind. For a game you don't care for, you seem to have an awful lot to say about it.

[Calcoran]

First things first, I wanted to AOL Doug on his very comprehensive post .

Second ... I was beginning to wonder ... I mean, doesn't it looks like it's beginning to form a pattern here? Each time, we have the following sequence:

• Siroth criticises a rule, or part of a rule, saying it is overly restrictive, unnatural, or just plain stupid.
• Then someone tries to explain the rule, explains why it is there in the first place, and usually shows that it is: either not as restrictive as it first appears, or that it is quite inkeeping with the series spirit.
• On cue, Siroth replies quoting a very specific example that is supposed to invalidate the whole explanation the other tried to offer. This is usually either:
  + An incomplete example where the other part would actually invalidate Siroth's point (the <B>or</B> in the prerequisites for SOEP maybe?),
  + A moot point: there is actually a restriction, but no player in his right mind would ever want to do that, so why should they feel restricted ... (the Starship Duty professionnal ability)
  + The one and only exception to the rule, that has been put there for game balance or to avoid overcomplicating the system.

All right, I probably am oversimplifying things ... but the fact is, the more I read this topic and Siroth's replies, the less constructive and credible it appears. Well, to Siroth's credit, he's kept rather polite and not too flame inclined during the whole thread. But still, 130 replies (some of which I committed) and counting makes one wonder ...

(Oh, by the way, since I am discussing your motives and not the actual game mechanics, you're not supposed to reply to this post Siroth ... consider it under a reader-specific cloaking device )

[Lancer]

Doug: You stated everything which I was about to say when I read all the posts here I missed during the last 24 hours. Probably a good thing, since you voiced it with much more eloquence than I ever could put together (and more ploitely than I would have managed).

Calcoran: Dito. And I don't feel you are oversimplifying much, if you do it at all. I am quite glad that I am not the only one who is seeing this pattern; I was beginning to fear that I am becoming a bit paranoid. But at least now I know that if I do I am in good company.

[Don Mappin]

Originally posted by Phantom
It doesn't. It is just that everytime the comparison is made everyone who had anything to do with making the game gets huffy and says "It's nothing like D&D."

Do you intentionally try to be a jerk? Was this called for?

[Calcoran]

Originally posted by Lancer
(snip)
I was beginning to fear that I am becoming a bit paranoid. But at least now I know that if I do I am in good company.

Lol!