Board Tolerance Experiment

[Capt.Hunter]

OK, I've compared this site favourably to other BBSs in the past, but here's a quick experiment. A recent thread on TrekBBS.com was:

"Should Enterprise have a gay character?"

The level of intolerance in many of the posts was astounding, although to be fair many said "no" because they thought B&B wouldn't be able to write it effectively or should focus on actually making the series any good in the first place...

So, as I feel people here are a bit more enlightened, I'm going to ask the same question and check the responses. Serious answers only please, as I'm trying to gauge the genuine level of tolerance here. I'm confident it'll be good.

As a proviso, we'll say that, if such a character were on the show, episodes focusing on them should not make their sexuality the only part of the character that is ever explored, as that is not how I judge homosexuals (I'll point out, whilst not gay myself, I have a friend who recently came out and the way we treat each other has not changed).

Post away!

[Robbert Raets]

I say yes. It'd be ten years late, but still.....

But now, I have to ask: A male homosexual or a lesbian?

(Edit: Just for the record, I haven't seen Enterprise yet, so I can't comment on the way it'd have to be written like Dan does below this post)

[Dan Stack]

No, it should not. Not under the current production team.

My reasoning is not based on intolerance - for example I would have been fine had TNG or DS9 done so and think it would have been a good idea - had it been part of the character, not the entirety. And if the production team on Enterprise changes, I'd be all for it as well.

My reasoning for not wanting to see a gay character on Enterprise is that, while overall I enjoy the show, I find the producers' treatment of sexuality has been very immature, about what I would expect in an immature 6th grade student (say around 11 years old or so). I am concerned that a gay character, under the current production team, would be written as a crude caricature, constantly checking out the captain's butt, hitting on every male guest character, and speaking in a lisp.

(Just for completeness, I wish Enterprise were totally asexual - l cringe every time they try to write a sexy scene - seeing T'Pol and Hoshi in their underwear is actually getting a little old and the excuses for doing so are getting lamer and lamer.)

[Edit - Capt Hunter, If your provisio were to extend to the portrayal of the character overall, in that the character were handled in a mature fashion, then I'd be all for it on Enterprise. I just don't find the sexuality of the current characters being handled all that well as it is.]

[Lancer]

Originally posted by Capt.Hunter
"Should Enterprise have a gay character?"

To me that would depend on the reasons for including a gay character in the show.

Could a gay character be included in the show - yes.

Would I object (under the provision that the character has more to him/her than just being gay) - no.

Should Enterprise have a gay character - only if there is a real reason for it, i.e. one that's better than "Hey, this is the 21st century we're living in, so why not be modern and include a gay character?" If it's to tell interesting stories or honestly promote tolerance for homosexual people, than yes.


Please note that I am really only talking about the production/writing of a TV show here. Nothing of the above should be in any way construed to reflect my opinion about gays/lesbians.
For the record: The few gays/lesbians I've met seemed no different to other people to me, so I have no strong feelings about them either way.

[Ensign Arrgh]

Being set only one and a half century later than our current times, I wonder if it would feel realistic to do the same thing as the other characters who broke the model of what was commonly seen as right
(Uhura, even if her role was relatively minor, was still a Bridge officer, while a woman and a black person, but as a non-issue, maybe it felt more realistic to set it in the mid 23rd than the early 22nd considering the situation at the time, not only in the states but in other countries (strange thing about racism examples I heard in Montreal when I was young was the almost immediate assumption that a black Canadian citizen was always an immigrant, when it is documented that some (read lots) have had ancestors there for up to two centuries, but I'm wandering off course), and Chekhov was russian (I've always felt that his claims about russian inventions were more like jokes, some badly placed some better, mostly since I saw the Trouble with Tribbles, his comment can not be anything else than a joke to diss on the potency of scotch compared to Vodka or whatever else he is drinking, and once again I'm wandering off course), but these were non-issues... The only time where I have seen any hesitation about a woman in command was the mishap by Harry Kim in Caretaker, but it can be explained by the fact that he possibly had never had that many high-ranking instructors who were women, depends on the campus (if Marseilles has a campus as seems to be implied in Voyager, then why not other cities on the member worlds, it could lead to many variations as there could be up to hundreds of schools in the main worlds). I don't recall anyone commenting about the Officer(never checked the rank) in TUC who asks if the end of the war means that they will be decommissioned, she's an officer bred in wartime, the Efrosiam comms officer in ST4 doesn't seem to care if his CO is to be called sir or ma'am, etc, etc, and I could go on and on. Same with Geordi, beyond the first or second season and the colony where people are genetically engineered for a perfect society, it is a non-issue that he uses an implant as eyes.), were non-issues for the characters. The viewers said "shocking", the characters didn't give a damn about the slight difference, as possibly did the actors. On the other hand, Homosexuality is still an issue, and no matter how you wish to shroud it with political correctness, it still remains so. Lots of people aren't open to letting gays teach in schools. Guess what, it doesn't says on the face "I'm Queer", and your kids may have had more than one without you ever knowing, even if they're open. 150 years is maybe enough time, maybe not, I wonder.

As to gay characters, why not. I'd like to see one who's not some form of escapism (no hermaphrodites, no trills to later explain it away as a lingering affair from a previous host who was the opposite sex (considering one host of jadzia was on Earth when McCoy was barely in the academy, it is a good guess that they have had contact early with the federation founders), a simple, mundane to the core, twin-sexed species, and not an Andorian, they have quad-marriages as a standard peculiarity of their society, it's too easy). No mirror-universe "I do it to show how wicked I am" idiocy, no "I'm bisexual but mostly do it with women... does it still count". It has to be a non-issue, and if there is mention of his romances, it's only the viewers who will care, the crew are from a people who have already gotten over with it, its the 22nd century for the gods' sake. Finally, after the "let's put Jery Ryan in an overly tight catsuit to show that her character's a civilian" stunt of B&B (she would have looked better in a science officer's uniform, and it would have seemed more normal to see her ordering the other science officers around), a lesbian character will seem like a cheap attempt at getting higher ratings (since they don't care if their ratings show trekkers or over-hormoned teenagers, as long as they're high), so if there is one, I feel it could be a man for once. (It's a matter of personal preference as well, for once a gay man depicted as a sane, normal being, without always paying close attention to his sexual orientaton.)

Edit - having only seen minefield, I don't know how they treat sexuality in Enterprise... And Yes, I am biased...

[Capt.Hunter]

Dan, objections like yours I have no problem with, as they're objections based on whether the idea would be successful, instead of on moral grounds.

Perhaps I should clarify here. My actual question would be "Should Trek have a gay character?", but seeing as how Enterprise is the only series where that could still happen...

Yes, I know we've seen Jadzia in a "lesbian" relationship on DS9, but hers was a special case based on the nature of Trills, and it was quite clear that she did not date women preferentially.

[KillerWhale]

Personnally, that would not bother me at all. As long as it can be made in a mature way and involve great storytelling, then I'm all ears! I have no moral issues with homosexuality whatsoever. I'm just looking for great stories and there can be homosexuality in good or bad stories, that's absolutely not related for me.

However I think the "board tolerance" experiment is flawed... Given that you are advocating tolerance from the top in your post, I believe that hardly anybody who will voice an opinion here will be against the idea... since saying the contrary would implicitly be considered as intolerance.

If you really want to carry such an experiment beyond the mere discussion, I'd suggest a poll, since it's anonymous.

[C5]

I hesitated a bit before answering, because on this particular topic I happen to have some, let's say, controversial views for someone who usually claims to be tolerant (views wich would take much too long to explain and beside would be far beyond the current topic).

I don't think Enteprise should have a regular gay character. The temptation to turn the character into the "hormone character in reverse" of the show would be too great, or, on the contrary, the will to make the character so much of "a normal crewmember" would turn him (or her) into someone who just isn't much attracted to the opposite gender.

However, leaving some evidence here and there among the episodes that homosexuality is not an issue in the 22nd century (like the mention of two crewmembers of the same sex dating, or even a gay semi-regular cast), might be OK if done properly.

[Capt.Hunter]

Ensign Aargh, your post was very well thought out. My own opinion is very similar, that we could have a character who is every so often seen with a partner, and the other characters don't react with shock or anything, even though they clearly know what's going on.

Dan, tried responding to your PM on this topic but your mailbox is full. Thanks for the comments, though!

[Capt.Hunter]

Killerwhale, you made much the same point as Dan in his message to me - that warning about the tolerance aspect of the experiment is going to make sure only tolerant people post. However, I've seen plenty of evidence on the TrekBBS site that intolerant people will take any opportunity to post their views. Also, I didn't want to appear as if I was just throwing a controversial topic in for no good reason and seem like a troll.

[Ensign Arrgh]

Usually, intolerant people who are sure of their positions are unlikely to be scared by a post saying: You're being tested for tolerance. Even less so if they feel they have a point to make, and even less so if they feel courageous on that particular day.

[Capt.Hunter]

Indeed. If you do have deeply-held beliefs as to why we shouldn't see homosexuals on Trek, please do feel free to post. Unless you're one of the rabid, "They all deserve to die of AIDS" types, I'll respect any honestly held and intelligently stated opinions, even if I disagree with them.

[KillerWhale]

Usually, intolerant people who are sure of their positions are unlikely to be scared by a post saying: You're being tested for tolerance.

Yup But I fear people who think "well... I wouldn't like to... but that's a religious opinion... it's not that I'm against it but I don't want to see it..." for example, or whatever, may not post (mild opinions that is, not agressive ones).

OTOH, now the point has been clarified, so nobody should be scared anymore to post

I'm genuinely interested by other opinions, personally, and I would be very curious and interested in knowing why people think otherwise. (C5? )

[Capt.Hunter]

If it's a religious opinion, I'd respect that if it's not taken too far. It's one thing to say that "humans were made by God with two sexes for a reason" and another to say "well, you're going against God's intent, so you belong in Hell". Humans have been going against God's will since the Apple (if you believe in such things), so we're sorta already there. Kinda makes you wonder if it wasn't the point - after all, if you want a species that'll do whatever you command, why give 'em free will?

[Capt.Hunter]

Oh, and sexuality on Enterprise generally involves sticking a male and a female character in the decon room in their skivvies and having them rub gel into each other.