Reverse First Contact Question

[Phoenix]

Ok, just another odd question, if you will.

As players or GM's how would you guys handle a pre-warp civilization’s ship that has come across a Federation Station or colony (something that you can't move out of the way). Does it violate the Prime Directive of they contact the Federation first? How awkward do you think it would be for the CO? Would anyone have the slightist idea of how to pull this one off in the game, without the players trying to kill the GM that is.

Anyway just a random thought that has been popping into my head for the last few days. Yes, to answer your questions, I am that bored

Phoenix...

[John Raynor]

I'd say that if a pre-warp civilization goes
to the trouble of launching interstellar
expeditions "the hard way," the Federation
will conclude that it is almost sure to be
"ready" for contact with "interstellar
civilization." I suspect that the Prime
Directive is far more concerned with the
collective psychology of the "potential
contact-ee," and that actual level of
technological achievement (the "do they have
warp propulsion and/or subspace radio?"
question) is only used as a strong indicator
of a society's collective psychological
readiness for contact, rather than an
absolute dividing line.

There was, for instance, a ST:tNG episode
in which Riker, disguised, visits a planet
whose inhabitants are on the verge of
building a warp-capable probe, yet are still
a fairly disorganized punch of xenophobic
yahoos (at least some of them are).
Definitely a case of technology *not*
reflecting readiness for contact.

On the other hand, if a "pre-warp" society
is using conventional radio to send signals
to nearby stars (actively *seeking* contact),
and building non-warp interstellar probes
(that takes a *lot* of effort, and thus
indicates a lot of curiosity about "what's
out there"), I'd say the Federation would be
willing to let itself be found...

[spyone]

IMO, the biggest "Thou Shalt Not..." in the Prime Directive is Thou Shalt Not Introduce The Concept of Extraterrestrial Life Where It Does Not Exist. Next on that list is Thou Shalt Not Introduce The Concept of Spaceflight Where It Does Not Exist.
These are WAY higher on the list than Thou Shalt Not Interfere In The Normal Development of A Society. That one the Federation infringes by trade, and possably by its existance.

I suspect that the reason Starfleet contacts civilizations that have developed Warp travel is that at that point contact is inevitable. I would say that applies equally well to anyone who finds you first.

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

[Robert Lai]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by spyone:
I suspect that the reason Starfleet contacts civilizations that have developed Warp travel is that at that point contact is inevitable. I would say that applies equally well to anyone who finds you first. </font>

I gather it's also to make a good 'first impression' - a welcome-to-the-neighborhood kind of thing so that the newly starfaring society doesn't get spooked, withdraw, and build a giant war engine for their next ship of the line.

The inference, of course, is a bit of Roddenberry futurism (which would be rather nice, at that) ... that, shown an interstellar community where there is no crime, no poverty, etc. ... others would choose to join that community rather than go off into a corner and sulk.

Bob

[qerlin]

I'm thinking if they manage to get into interstellar space & make contact with the UFP, they're fair game for diplomatic and other relations. The UFP would just tear clear of aiding them with advanced technologies...

[Paul]

If a civlisation comes across a Federation colony or starbase, then it stands that the civilisation is probably ready enough for the greater truth - there are more lifeforms around than its own.

Once you have developed the capacity for interplanetary transport, then you are ready to expand your own horizons of your place in the Universe; once you develop interstellar transport, your own ideas about your place in the Universe are about to be shot to pieces, and if you're not ready to accept that, what the heck are you doing exploring the galaxy, anyhow?

In this event, all that remains is for the first Federation outpost that this civlisation comes across to do is to roll out the Welcome Mat and say "Hi there! How are things? Why not drop in for a nice hot cup of tea and let's talk about things interstellar and political?" Meanwhile, a few questions will be asked behind-the-scenes as to "Why the heck didn't we see this coming? How long have these guys been ready with interstellar transport, anyway?" - but that's another story.

Just my two cents...

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"...and more controversial than Oolon Colluphid's trilogy of philosophical blockbusters Where God went Wrong, Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes, and Who is this God Person Anyway?"
- The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams (dec.)

[Antonsb214]

Well, first contact wasn't exactly cordial between the Federation and the Romulans and the Klingons. The Romulans and Klingons were looking for more territory to conquer and the Federation was in the way. Hopefully any civilizations the Federation meets in the future will be more receptive to the idea of peaceful co-existence, or at least realize that they are outgunned. If they are xenophobic or have a religion which tells them that they are "it" in the universe, then they may have a harder time accepting the truth. If it leads them on some holy crusade to cleanse the universe of unclean lifeforms, they may find themselves in a world of hurt depending on who they meet first.

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"Retreat?! Hell, we just got here!"

[chanak]

Interesting…. I try to think what would happen if on our earth’s RL probes happen upon E.Ts. In Trek history it seemed that earth was really not ready for contact of the third kind, being that most of people were pulling themselves out of the brink of self -annihilation, but I deviate. The point that I am driving at is that just because a civilization is capable of making stellar ships, doesn’t necessary mean that they are capable of handling the fact that there are other life forms in the universe.

To get back to your question though. I think the Federation would open their arms to these people, but I seriously doubt that the Federation would provide them with any technology. The prime directive would still be in effect. I sight the episodes “Symbioses”, and the Outrageous Okana”. In the former they clearly provide tech to the damaged ship, but tech that they already had (I think the repaired and upgrade it slightly), in they did the same in the latter.

[spyone]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by chanak:
The point that I am driving at is that just because a civilization is capable of making stellar ships, doesn’t necessary mean that they are capable of handling the fact that there are other life forms in the universe.</font>

And my point is, ready or not they are going to have to deal with it. The Federation can only hide for so long. If someone is building ships and sending them to distant stars, they are going to run into someone else eventually, so let's try to arrange that happening on favorable terms.

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You're a Starfleet Officer. "Weird" is part of the job.

[StyroFoam Man]

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

[Cybrludite]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by StyroFoam Man:
Hehehehe.... But what if they stumble into one of the battles of the Dominion War?? Or stumble into a Borg Melee? Hehehehehe.... There goes the favorable terms....

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! PURE EVIL!

</font>

I was just pondering such a situation, with a twist. The Prime Directive is pretty well known to folks who might wish the Federation ill. Picture a system that's got a race that's advanced enough that the Fed's don't want to risk a permanent presence< but is still not ready for first contact. (Say, about like where we should be in about 10 years or so tech-wise, but with hot & cold running wars)Place it near somewhere strategically important. Just off of a major space-lane or something. Now put a Tal Shiar/Orion Syndicate/Jem'Hadar covert operations base out in the Kupier Belt, or on a large moon orbiting a gas giant. Star Fleet (or your crew) finds out about the base, and realizes that it's a major threat to their security. How do they take out the base without violating the Prime Directive? Especially if it's the Dominion's base, & the War is going on... Are the losses incured from this base remaining active worth staying true to the PD & the Federation's guiding principals?

Jon

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If not for physics & law enforcement, I'd be unstoppable!

[Dan Gurden]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by chanak:
I sight the episodes “Symbioses”, and the Outrageous Okana”. In the former they clearly provide tech to the damaged ship, but tech that they already had (I think the repaired and upgrade it slightly), in they did the same in the latter.</font>

Actually, in the former 'Symbiosis', they didn't upgrade and repair. In fact the Prime Directive had been cited by the bad guys to ensure that the Federation kept the status quo.

Picard chose to then expand the Prime Directive to allow him to break the dependancy by letting the ship fall into dis repair INSTEAD of setting them up for several more years of addiction.

'Symbiosis' is definatly a good example.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cybrludite:
Picture a system that's got a race that's advanced enough that the Fed's don't want to risk a permanent presence< but is still not ready for first contact. (Say, about like where we should be in about 10 years or so tech-wise, but with hot & cold running wars)Place it near somewhere strategically important. Just off of a major space-lane or something. Now put a Tal Shiar/Orion Syndicate/Jem'Hadar covert operations base out in the Kupier Belt, or on a large moon orbiting a gas giant. Star Fleet (or your crew) finds out about the base, and realizes that it's a major threat to their security. How do they take out the base without violating the Prime Directive? Especially if it's the Dominion's base, & the War is going on... Are the losses incured from this base remaining active worth staying true to the PD & the Federation's guiding principals?
</font>

The following is my opinion only, so take it or leave it;

It really depends on who the enemy in question is. In the case of the Dominion as suggested, I really dont think that this kind of subtlty is their style. Using the Prime Directive as a weapon is far more suited to diplomatic and espionage tensions than full-blown conflict.

So while it could work with the Dominion in the early years, and definatly for the Romulans and Cardassians, once hostilities have broken out it is far more fitting that they would use the Federations 'bleeding heart' as the next shield by occupying the planet and using the innocents as a shield and forced labour...



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Dan.

"Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."

http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

[chanak]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">oringaly posted by Dan Gurden; Actually, in the former 'Symbiosis', they didn't upgrade and repair. In fact the Prime Directive had been cited by the bad guys to ensure that the Federation kept the status quo. </font>

I stand corrected (even thought I knew that, just fail to put that in there ) Yep but at first Picard was going to let Geordi do the repairs. Since the aliens in question already had the knowlege (I say that loosely ) of the tech in question.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">oringinaly posted by Spyone: And my point is, ready or not they are going to have to deal with it. The Federation can only hide for so long. If someone is building ships and sending them to distant stars, they are going to run into someone else eventually, so let's try to arrange that happening on favorable terms.</font>

I think that you are right when it comes the a warp civilization that comes knocking on your door, but I Actually think the Federation could hide from a prewarp civilization, who has sublight starships in space. That's Phoenix is asking about. IMO you would need scanning equipment that is able to detect ships that are in warp. In fact why couldn't the Satellites in 'Gary 7', or any other time a Starship had traveled back in time to earth's pre-warp age? Also think about all of those 'duck blind' mission that Starfleet conducts, the have to get those ship to the planet. I'm certain that they don't just spy on the pre-industall civs.

Just something to think on.

[This message has been edited by chanak (edited 07-05-2001).]

[flip]

I read the novel "Prime Directive" and General Order One and several careers were spun around turned inside out and came out backwards.

Simply put, the Enterprise was to visit a secret Federation First Contact outpost on the moon or Pre warp Talin IV. Kirk et al had to bend over backwards to prevent detection, or at least ensure it was explained as a hoax, gas cloud, acid trip or whatever. The reptilian Talin were actively seeking life off planet, to the point of nuclear war.

Some say the Federation should reveal itself to calm the two biggest nations, since the already have the raw materials to make transtators and subspace technology. Ergo, the Talin will find the Feds on their own.

The rest say that they have to progress naturally, with NO interference, indeed until the Talin find and interpret warp signatures, subspace messages and dilithium on their own, the Feds can do nothing, even if it results in Nuclear war.

Where the application of the PD becomes interesting is HOW and WHY.

The Enterprise destroyed several nukes accidently launched over Talin to ensure peace talks continued. The Enterprise was NOT detected, and the incident was deemed computer error. The PD wasn't violated.

The Enterprise is shot to hell by the Talin nuclear arsenals of the two biggest nation states. The missles detected the Enterprise, and the planet went into nuclear winter.
PD is broken (as is the Enterprise, the First Contact office and the majority of the crew)

Its a law, and we have to look at how it was broken, and what were the reasons and results. Was the planet affected, good or bad, by the introduction of ideas, opinions, genes, weapons, technology?
Were any Federation personnel, Starfleet, Fed Investigation Bureau, Science Council etc
detected?
Will the planet be better or worse, both in the short and long run (as in centuries).
Was the violation if any done the save lives?
The Crew's? The Planets? One group or the world or all of them?
Will a second violations repair the damage? or was the first an effort to repair a previous intervention?


NOVEL SPOILER

To illustrate, Kirk was later found not guilty of breaking that law for the following reasons:

1) he attempted to facilitate the planets own mechanisms for peaceful resolution while remaining undetected.

2) Due to a loophole in Federation policy of setting aside nearby systems for the Talins use as potential future members, the Talin were de facto members of the Federation.

3) One member each from the two largest nations left in a orbital craft of their own design in a joint ie global effort to track down the First contact scientists after the Enterpirse was nearly destroyed. They KNEW life existed elsewhere

the main reason

4) the Talin society was already affected by a concerted effort by aliens to trigger nuclear warfare. They were aware of someone tampering and spying, and updated detection technology found the Federation oupost and the Enterprise. Effect, not cause. Everything done was to undo that damage.

To truly violate the Prime Directive, one had to knowingly affect change regardless of intent. To apply the Prime Directive, the culture must be measured as to how well it can handle new ideas, with warp technology, global government, and relative social maturity and stability as methods of that measurment.

If they can as a world handle it, stand on their own as partners in the galaxy, then the Federation can reveal themselves. Not babysit, pick sides, colonize, adjust, reeducate, punish, but invite, teach and help.

[Pakled]

All this reminds me of an event which rarely occurs -or so it seems to me- in ST roleplaying but which was fairly commonplace in TOS, and to a degree in TNG and VOY as well.
I am talking about a truly "reversed first contact": that a Federation vessel or outpost is encountered by a tech-superior civilization, and that we get roughly the same treatment we give all those quaint on-the-verge-of-warp societies.

Something like this happened in a Trek game where I was one of the players; it still stands out as one of the best sessions we ever ran.

I was wondering: anybody else has similar experiences? Dit it work out OK or did it suck?

And lastly: why is it that during the Dominion War, and during other Federation-threatening time such as Borg incursions of Sector 001 et. al., there's NEVER any mention of the galactic neighbours of the UFP whom are presumably still around (think of the First Federation, the Organians, the Zalkonians etc.)?