Klingon Subjects

[AslanC]

Basing this off of Dan's Klingon Perspective Dominion War thread, I am thiking about taking the idea of Klingon subjugated worlds vying for independance or evne *gasp* UFP membership or associate status

Now the problem becomes...who is subjugated by the Klingons? Any ideas folks? I am interested in your ideas about who this would go, how the Klingons would react and what races or cultures may be subjects of the Klingon Empire

This could be a fun one, please be creative

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Aslan Collas
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RPG_Trek; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rpg-trek
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Ferengi Rule Of Acquisition #76: Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies.

[Thanatos]

---LONG WINDED WARNING---

This ones an interesting topic, actually. If you're looking for subjugated races you can easily look to single-episode races from TOS that were located near the Klingons. Races like Gorn or Tholians (though those ones in particular as far as I've heard are still empires unto themselves). None spring to mind right now (mostly cus I haven't got any Trek epsiodes in over a month -gasp-).

Another alternative is taking races that appear briefly in one game and fade away never to be mentioned in Trek again... not even in games by the same companies. The Sha'kurian from Klingon Academy come to mind, but not being far in the game I have no clue as to what really happens to them. There's also the Mirak and Hydran Empires from Starfleet Command Vol. 2 whom I don't recall hearing anything about ever in any Trek shows or movies, who would make excellent client races.

Without any hard data you can take just about any race and make them subjugates of the Klingon Empire. For such roles I find though that the best races are the original ones. Additionally, as much as the Empire had been trying to expand towards the Federation, I believe a large number of their subjugates would be away from the Federation borders, or the borders of other major factions. They would have been pushing in that direction and anybody caught in the middle probably would have gone running to the Feds, and thus now be a UFP member race, or at least protectorate. Thus the expanionistic nature of the Empire would keep the subjugates either inside the Empire's boundries and probably a bit more docile, or on the outer boundries farther from the known major factions, or at least not close enough to ask membership in any of them.

The concept of a revolution, however, from a subjugate race is very interesting in several ways. Besides the obvious ensuing re-subjugation by the Empire, if they choose to bother, the race fighting for its freedom might gain some support from the Bajorans and other races who've done the same thing and fought against their opressors. Not to mention that, though the Tal Shiar was weakened by attacking the changeling homeworld, they would probably still be trying to destabilise the Empire's status and be covertly supporting the revolution. This one provides many options for outright conflict sessions, episodes of intrigue and covert action, or just backdrop noise to add some versimilitude to the game.

As for the Klingon reaction, I do believe they would try to keep their underlings under control, allowing them to simply take their freedom makes the Empire look weak. This could further destabilise Martok's power base post war amongst the still hot-blooded warriors (going by what was in the Dominion War Sourcebook) if he allows it to go on, but oppressing another people could lead to tensions with the Federation, which would also destabilise his power base with the houses that support new peace with the Federation.

Assuming that the revolution occurs during the war the Dominion may even offer some support, in an attempt to get the former subjugate on their side, while post-war I basically covered above , but there may be some remenant Cardassian factions seeking to aid their cause (once again, the Dominion War Sourcebook provides some information on the state of Cardassia and its divided factions).

On the Federation end, accepting a plea for aid or membership from a subject race of the Klingon Empire could degrade relationships, making it look to the Great Council as though the Federation seeks to bring the Empire's downfall from within. Conversely, the Federation would be hard pressed to refuse to help, since I doubt the Klingons treat their subjects all that much better than the Cardassians did. And as I recall it the Feds certainly did aid the Bajorans in their time of need.

So, from the point of view of a narrator, I find the possibilities endless for such a concept. Actually, I think I might have to have some fun with this one with my poor crew

Than

[AslanC]

Thanatos those are some good posts.

I cannot find anything execpt images of the ships of that race from Klingon Academy. Are there any pictures of what they look like anywhere?

Also, what is your take on using other sci-fi aliens...you know cool races from Farscape or the like?

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Aslan Collas
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RPG_Trek; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rpg-trek
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Ferengi Rule Of Acquisition #76: Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies.

[Thanatos]

Aw man... I love cross-over aliens!!! And cross-over everything else fer that matter... though I'm still recovering from my last Chtulu-Vampire cross. As fer aliens from other games I'm at a sore loss, because the extent of my role playing has been about two years and has mostly been Shadowrun and the like. So I can't help you with races from other games except maybe some PC CRPGs or RTSes (my crew just developped a sudden Protoss problem , thanks fer inadvertantly leading me to that idea).

As fer the Sha'kurian there was only a brief mention of them being amphibious humanoids in the KA manual. I've done up a full template per the system used in TNG Core book, though I have no idea how it balances. They actually had a deep culture, but they were very xenophobic. If you want the write-up I can post it here, I think that's legal No pics though, sadly, but if you just want appearances I put them in at just over human height but with much more slender builds and aqua skin. They're also originally Delta-quad, but don't quote me on that, I'd have to find the manual which would be difficult since I'm a week away from moving and have it packed.

If I dun hear back I'll probably jes post the Sha'kurian stats I wrote when I get around to copying them off my other computer (an ol' Win 3.11 bawx, pheer it!!!! ). No promises on point balancing though.

And actually you bring up another point in your post as well (sort of). Would a subjugated race be forced to destroy all their ships (scrap for reassembly as a Klingon design) or might the Klingons allow a subjugated race the option of having their defense fleet made out of their own old designs (assuming they had any) with a contingent of Klingon Defense Force ships present to keep an eye on them, allowing the Klingon Warriors to go and conquer new worlds rather than baby sitting an enemy they've already beaten to the point of submitting. I can't really see the Klingons wanting to keep too many of their fine warriors back like that, just enough to give a self-destruct order to the ships should they get out of line. Just more food for thought. I'm using the Sha'kurian in my own game, as a still-standing Empire hiding behind the Romulans near the Taurhai, and am doing up Spacedock versions of their ships (and the weapons from KA) so if anybody wants I'll hurry up and do those a bit earlier too.

As for other races the same problem would also apply, presuming that the Klingons allow them their own defense force a lot of races might find a way to get around the Klingon installed self-destructo device (or whatever the klingons put in to keep them in line) and thus revolutions in Klingon space could be quite dangerous. Hmmm... I'll think on this one and get back to you, hopefully with some Sha'kurian too.

Than

[Sho-sa Kurita]

To me, the best thing about rebellion within the Empire is that it could easily bring the relationship between the UFP and the KE full circle in real world terms. The UFP and KE originally being USA and USSR analogs during the Cold War, and now the USA and Russia.



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-- "Since the whiskey belongs to me, and it's on me, lets drink to me!"

[Dan Stack]

The only TNG episode that I can think of which reveals all are not happy with their membership in the Empire is "TNG: The Mind's Eye".

Some other resources for subjects include FASA's Klingons and various adventure supplements ("A Matter of Priorities" and "Termination: 1456" being good examples.) FASA's "Imbalance of Power" is a good example of a warrior species which could possibly join the Empire of its own free will.

Does the Empire still conquer other worlds. I would imagine that if they find themselves in a war they would occupy the other government's worlds, a practice somewhat different from the Federation, given their numerous skirmishes with the Tzenkethi, Talarians, etc. - even when victorious, the Federation prefers to walk away. I'm certain the Klingons would not take such an enlightened approach.

The question is, what if the Klingons encounter a world bristling with resources, bearing an early industrial age level of technology. The 23rd centuries would invade. Would the 24th? The Federation would surely have a fit if they did. (Of course, look how many "enlightened" countries have had relationships with dictatorships, but let us hope the Federation is better than us.) Personally, I think not - look how much the Empire is itching for war in "Way of the Warrior" and in other episodes - they show the signs of being constantly held back. Of course, I could be convinced otherwise, but I don't think there's much evidence either way.

[Phoenix]

AslanC, If you can find a copy (Feb 2001), the novel "Diplomatic Implausibility" by Keith R.A. DeCandido sounds exactly like what your talking about. The story takes place shortly after the end of DS9 with Worf's first assignment as a diplomat...and a species that broke away from the Empire during the height of the Dominion War, later re-conquered, then revolted against the Klingons. The down point (IMO) was several of the characters in the book were various Klingon characters from TNG & DS9 assigned to the same ship. Decent story, not the best I've read.

Phoenix...

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"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
-Napoleon

[Diamond]

Remembering FASAtrek, certain Orion colonies were on the Klingon side of the neutral zone and subjugated by the empire. Some of those adjusted well, faithfully letting the Klingons having military control and sending their tribute in on time but otherwise making money as usual.

There's some room for a "Hogans Heros" - esque situation where fasttalking orions cleverly outmaneuver their Klingon overlords.

[pesterfield]

I see several interesting ideas from this.

Some subject worlds were seeded by the Preserves with humans/vulcans/etc. What will the Federation do when they find out?

POW camps were Federation prisoners have been kept since the TOS era.

OTOH a subject species that lives on worlds Klingons can't. They might be technical subjects but they should be able to do their own thing.

The TNG Federation seemed to have lost the will to fight. That embarrassing peace treaty that started the Maquis, not liberating Bajor and thereby opening another front against the Cardassians.

We saw the start in the movies with the Khitomer Accords. An extremely hostile enemy you've been fighter for over half a century is on its knees and you DON'T take advantage of it?

[Dan Gurden]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by pesterfield:

Some subject worlds were seeded by the Preserves with humans/vulcans/etc. What will the Federation do when they find out?</font>

Very possible, and very much in the vein of the original series and TNG, where there were humans on every other planet...

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
POW camps were Federation prisoners have been kept since the TOS era.

</font>

I am not sure I see this... Some species, such as the Romulans and Cardassians might keep POWs after hostilities cease... But Klingons...
I feel their combat style, and cultural opinion of prisoners would make the capture of POW's rare, and to draw a real-world parralel to a similar situation (ie; The Japanese in WW2), the chances are that POW's are likely to be harshly treated and put to work (in places like Rura Penthe)...

However there has been an alliance in the meantime, so why would the Klingons want to waste resources on POW's just to keep them mining a pittance?

Of course this may not be the case for the odd 'lost prisoner' who is stuck in an alien labour crew forgotten by all...

Just my thoughts here.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
-Snip-
The TNG Federation seemed to have lost the will to fight. That embarrassing peace treaty that started the Maquis, not liberating Bajor and thereby opening another front against the Cardassians.

</font>

But the treaty DID liberate Bajor? I always assumed that the treaty wasn't an embarrasment it was simply a different cultural mindset where the Cardassians manipulated the Federation into signing a treaty that would end up favouring the Cardies...

Unfortunatly the Maquis was an unexpected side-effect, driven partially by the knowledge that the Federation was manipulated, and partially by a dislike of the Cardies...

It was politics at work... 'nuff said.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
We saw the start in the movies with the Khitomer Accords. An extremely hostile enemy you've been fighter for over half a century is on its knees and you DON'T take advantage of it?

</font>

It depends on your standards... the Federation as a whole wont want to sink to those levels. But some would.

Kind of the point to the film...

I agree, 'kick a man when he's down, theres no better time'. Is a great philosophy in a street fight. But to apply the same logic to empires would involve massive ammounts of collaterol damage, bordering on genocide (c'mon, you really think that the Klingons would have simply stepped aside? The fight would have dragged on and on until their arses got kicked into the stone age...)

But when thats your option, then simply consider that the Federation will always falter at that possibility.


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Dan.

"Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."

http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

[AslanC]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by pesterfield:
Some subject worlds were seeded by the Preserves with humans/vulcans/etc. What will the Federation do when they find out?</font>

I like that idea. Very Hodgkin's Law Could make for tense negotiations.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">POW camps were Federation prisoners have been kept since the TOS era.</font>

I doubt highly any one other than a Vulcan could survive the work camps for over 100 years...but you never know...maybe one old crazy Rat King of a human

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">OTOH a subject species that lives on worlds Klingons can't. They might be technical subjects but they should be able to do their own thing.</font>

Sure, but let them try and leave said planet or build their own starships, or not hand over their tithe and things could get ugly.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The TNG Federation seemed to have lost the will to fight. That embarrassing peace treaty that started the Maquis, not liberating Bajor and thereby opening another front against the Cardassians.</font>

But as was pinted out the Treaty did liberate Bajor, that was the point of it I think anyway.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">We saw the start in the movies with the Khitomer Accords. An extremely hostile enemy you've been fighter for over half a century is on its knees and you DON'T take advantage of it?</font>

This is what lead to the schisim in Starfleet at the time. Some wanted to attack, others wanted peace. In the end the PEace Mongers won

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Aslan Collas
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RPG_Trek; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rpg-trek
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Ferengi Rule Of Acquisition #76: Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies.

[AslanC]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dan Gurden:
"Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."</font>

Now that's the funniest sig I have seen in years Bravo sir...take a bow



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Aslan Collas
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RPG_Trek; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rpg-trek
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Ferengi Rule Of Acquisition #76: Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies.

[Fortunae]

I would recommend checking out the various elements of the unpublished materials that would have gone in the Klingon Box set, I am pretty sure I remember them touching on some subject species, including one that was already manuevering for a full revolt with Romulan backing.

Another idea might be having the Rebellion occur on a planet formerly owned by the Cardassians...after all, if they can "rebel" against their Dominion "allies" why not against their Klingon Overlords?

This works well if the planet is owned by a particular Klingon house that has taken most of it's "Formal Warriors" off planet to battle the Dominion and then taken heave losses so it can't even pull them back to put down the Rebellion. Other Klingon houses might offer to send "help", but they will then use that excuse to take the planet...the ruling house in the unpleasant position of having to offer Warrior status to "Second Class" Klingon citizens like merchants and so forth if they can put the rebellion down...and just when they think things are under control...an "ally" sends "help" and they have to keep *real* warriors from taking the planet from them in a brilliant battle of Klingon Diplomacy.

::shrugs::
Peace. =)

[oops1]

A source, if you don't mind SFB, is the Prime Directive RPG. IIRC, it had several subject races listed, along with their natural demeanor and appitudes. Hope this helps

[AslanC]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oops1:
A source, if you don't mind SFB, is the Prime Directive RPG. IIRC, it had several subject races listed, along with their natural demeanor and appitudes. Hope this helps </font>

I thought about using these as well as some of the FASA ones...have to complete my FASA collection



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Aslan Collas
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RPG_Trek; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rpg-trek
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Ferengi Rule Of Acquisition #76: Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies.