Why are Starfleet Marines so poorly recieved?

[Sea Tyger]

Originally posted by Owen E Oulton
"Ever wondered why NASA only takes Air Forces personnel?
Ever seen a Colonel or Naval officer in NASA's ranks?"

Many NASA astronauts are (and historically have been) Naval Aviators, including Alan Bean and James Lovell. John Glenn was a Marine Lt. Colonel. Neal Armstrong and Scott Carpenter were both former naval aviators.

Check out this site for the real skinny: http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/

Alan Shepard was also a Navy officer, eventually retiring at the rank of Rear Admiral.

Several Navy officers (who are also graduates of the Naval Postgraduate School, where I work) have been and are a part of the astronaut corps, including Apollo astronaut Captain Gene Cernan and Shuttle astronaut Captain Winston Scott. There is even a Navy medical officer who flew in space.

[Polanski]

Ok ... I give up ... my mistake
Hope that my main point got through though...

[Highway Hoss]

I've been something of a silent lurker as far as these "Marine" debates go, but I thought I'd kick my dual copper Lincolns into the fray.
Since Starfleet is quasi-military in nature, more along the lines of a police force or the Coast Guard, I tend to think that most Ground Forces would not be under their direct command...instead, they would have specialized Security and Tactical personnel similar to GSG9 or SWAT teams. Most ground forces would probably be planetary militia and defense forces, supplemented by a force of naval infantry (the Starfleet Ground Forces).

[Greg Smith]

Originally posted by Dan Gurden

In your post you ask "why not call them Marines?"

You are half right.

Only one organisation uses a capital letter in that name. the US Marines,

Tut, tut, Dan. You being British, you should know about the Royal Marines.

http://www.royal-marines.mod.uk/static/pages/1907.html

[Eric R.]

Just to pat the shovel on top of Polanski's grave a bit, the first commander of the International Space Station was a Navy Commander and former Seal.

[Dan Gurden]

Originally posted by Greg Smith
Tut, tut, Dan. You being British, you should know about the Royal Marines.

http://www.royal-marines.mod.uk/static/pages/1907.html

erm. Delierate Mistake. thats right. Just checking to see who was looking.

*phew* Dont think anyone noticed!

[Lt Cmdr Matt]

Why do we call engineers, engineering officer?

They are a part of the operations branch, so why not call them operations officers? They do one part of the operations, maintenance and development.

We have security officers that have been trained in ground tactics...you get Marines. Either way you slice it they work as a security type force but we call them Marines or Rapid Response, or Rangers because they are a different type of security officer, furthermore they are a security officer.

Security helps defend. "Marines" help defend...

Okay, my little speach is over. Enjoy! ANyone who wants to flame me can, just be constructive!

[Salinger]

Engineering officers (or engineers) are part of the Engineering Division within the Operations Branch. The Security Division is also a member of the Operations Branch.

Quack!

[Lt Cmdr Matt]

My point was that it is all in a name. They are all security officers by definition. The Armed Forces protects or secures America from threats. They could be called security officers. If you call SF Marines Marines, they are still securing the planet which makes them security officers.

[E W Dawson]

Ok, I think I am getting the basics of this matter.

1) Part of the main problem is the literal interpretation of the name "marine"?

For example, some groups (ex/current Marines) want Star Trek to honor them by naming their ground forces after the U.S. Marines. Also, some are turned off by the negative connotation associated with the title.

2) The second issue is in regards to the actual logistics/organisation of such a force?

Some think that the ground forces are a seperate entity from Starfleet with their own command and organisational structure whle others don't?

Couldn't we all agree, though, that inorder to truely tackle this problem we must think outside of our current societal reference? For example, could it not be logically argued that ground/military forces of the 24th century (specifically Federation forces) would have little or no resemblance to our modern day equivalents. Everything from technology to training to basic mind set is radically different than what we have today.

Lets say that the closest organisation that resembes the military aspects of Starfleet is the modern day U.S. Navy. This comparision is already inadequate from the start because the U.S. Navy has a smaller research to military ratio than Starfleet and it has only a fraction of the offensive and defensive capabilities of Starfleet. Complicate that with the fact that the mentality and rational behind the two organizations commanding governments are completly opposite and you get the and even less adequate reference point.

So how can we argue what ground military forces of the future are or are not like based on what we know of modern day military forces?

I ask all of this because I will eventually need to come to a coherent ruling on this issue in my Star Trek game universe and I would like to fully understand the issue before I make a judgement.

[Eric R.]

History teaches that military history remains at a fairly constantly level of undestanding. For example take a Roman Legionair and put him in a US Battalion serving in Afganistan what differences would he notice?

His weapon is different yes, but it can be referenced to a Bow or ballastia as it has range and striking power. give him a day or two to understand basic fire and movement tactics and he will see some simularity to his own fire and movement tactics with the Pilum and Gladius. The tactyics of there foew would resemble the bandits and zealots he fought in either Britian, Spain or Judea

His equipment is now simular there is a curiase made of cloth and a heavy material that is strange to him but nevertheless he quickly can see its purpsoe to stop an enemies blow though he would point out its ineffectivness against close combat edged weapons. On top of that it is camoflaged and he no longer has to spend hours polishing it! He has pants now that would be strange but he would remember many felow legionairs who talked of wearing pants in the cold weather of Germania and afganistan is the coldest he has ever known. he would diffenently like his new helmet and again no polishing needed he would be impressed with the load bearing equipment and would make his new comrades look like shurkers in his marching ability. Though he would probably still want to wear his sandles instead of the heavy leather boot.

He would be surprised that instead of one optio per century there is now three who coomand smaller third of quarter centuries who work in a plan devised by his centorian. He would still funtion in a 8 man unit and would be glad it even has a name a squad. The senior Centurion of the cohort he has been assigned to commands a century he has never seen before as it seems all the immunes have been placed into it called a HQ century. He would perhaps even think how much more effective that is.

Operations would consist of marching around hostile villages and having rocks and sticks thrown at you and everyonce in a while some body would take a shot at him. the population would resent him but he knows he is defending his new patria and would be impressed by his comrades sesne of duty and honor to there patria and unit and would take equal pride in shouting there slogans of "All the way" just as he once called the name of his centuries past commander to scare the foe away. The duty would resemble that of serving in Judea or Spain of his own time.

Now getting him to board a whirrly bird is another thing but then again Romans also had a thing for birds. he would be watched every time an enemy surendered or the third century, called a platoon would enter a village as his optio thinks he gets a bit zealous in search and destroy missions but thats war he thinks. he gets lonely from the Isolation of being far from home but he has his comrades to share that with. And again he think the legionairs on the Germania frontier and he have a lot in common.

This was bit long but I only wanted to show that Military technology is the only variable in Military history, but it has to adapt to Organization, tactics and administrative needs not to mention the Psychological perseptive of the soldier.

[Polanski]

Originally posted by Eric R.
Just to pat the shovel on top of Polanski's grave a bit, the first commander of the International Space Station was a Navy Commander and former Seal.

I swear ... you guys are mercyless ...
But then again, I should have done my research right
I was trying to point out ... Ah never mind

[Eric R.]

Originally posted by Polanski
I swear ... you guys are mercyless ...

Yup, especialy to those we know who will take it all in good humor like its intended.

[marty4286]

My soloution for my games:

Starfleet Security is the "Marines": Small number, specialized in planetary assault

A separate Federation Army: They do the same mission as the Starfleet security, but others too: like occupation and disaster relief, among other things

Then there are the territorials. Each member world has its own army and "navy", under the command of their federal counterparts during times of crisis (Kinda like the US national guard system)

Then there's Federation Customs, Federal Bureau of Imigration and Naturalization, Bureau of Criminal Investigations (FBI), Local and Planetary Police, UFP Department of the Interior, Bureau of Contraband and Arms (Sorta like the BATF and DEA of the USA put together), UFP Secret Service (CIA + NSA of the UFP, Starfleet Intelligence would be like the GRU or DIA), Section 31... (/me readies the cyanide pills)

Pretty complex, but it added atmosphere

[calguard66]

Though I am a supporter of Marines, I'm pretty sure they would be a separate arm. If there were "Marines" closely associated with Starfleet, we would have seen them by now. A "Federation Marine Corps" perhaps, but not a "Starfleet Marine Corps".

There is also the possibility of a "Federation Army", ground based forces assigned to planetary defense, with no deep space capability at all.

Originally posted by Owen E Oulton

To extrapolate, the assassin in the Khitomer Conspiracy was Colonel West, arguably a Marine officer.