Why are Starfleet Marines so poorly recieved?

[E W Dawson]

"Ronald Regan Memorial Orbital Defense Base"

To me, that is pretty funny.

But seriously, what do we have to work with that is canon?

[JALU3]

Well what we have cannonly, is mainly Cardassian in view in regards to to Planetary Defense.

Apparently, even though it's theoretically possible you don't find many ground based defenses, IE Planetary shields, Torpedo Batteries, Phaser batteries, etc. etc.

However, with Cardassia Prime and the Chitock (sp) system we do know that atleast the FMR CU has orbital defense platforms. These are capable of firing amazingly powerful phasers or disruptors . . . and possibly firing Torps (but I didn't see that happen, so that's speculation). Furthermore, they are VERY durable.

As for the Feds . . . all we've seen are those three insignificant automated defense pods that the first cube blew up near Jupiter. Funny, you think there'd be more protecting Sol, and other major systems. Guess SC didn't want to finance those things . . . oh well, I guess those who survived the Breen attack have now learned their lesson.

As for GF numbers I can see what you were saying. As with modern warfare "Whoever holds the high ground wins the war." However that is not the case, look at Vietnam. We held the high ground, we had the shier power. I mean not taking into the fact taht we made the majority of the civilian population detest our presence, and failled to listen to those who were in the thick of it, or our allies who knew the country best. So in theory we should of won the war. Wrong.

If you have a population that is still willing to fight, you still need people on the ground to go about and take them out. OK you have orbital control, after taking heavy losses from whatever defending FLT was there or orbital D was present. You've secured all that you mention. So in essence you control the planet? Yes? No?

No. What you'll end up with is like what happened in the PI during WWII. The Japanese held the major cities, and the majority of overland routes. But every where else, and if they weren't looking they'd be cut to death by your handy massedy (sp).

Granted . . . in the 24th century you'd be able to blast them from space. But, even with sensors, which as we have seen in multiple RPGs and on screen, can easliy be ineffective due to "atmospheric distortions". So in the end you still need a considerable force size during clean up ops.

[JALU3]

As for the Ronald Reagan Memorial Defense Platform . . . I Like it. Rather make it a defense ring around the Moon, like in Starship Troopers. But wait, this is trek, it wouldn't work. NM

[toadkiller]

Wow - 4 pages and we're still getting along

I've gone along with JALU pretty much in my game system:

Many member worlds have local defense forces that may or may not include a "coast guard" type force tasked with local customs/law enforcement type duties. If they don't provide this than SF will do so, usually in a much "thinner" way. (i.e. remote colonies will likely be left unprotected from pirates/smugglers allowing the PC ship to save the day while Terran system has local space enforcement ships that harrass our "free trader" game). These local defense forces can be Federalized in emergencies and thus fall under Star Fleet.

I don't have an Army of the UFP as such. In the (rare) instances when such a thing is needed they Federalize local forces.

I do have a very small, very professional "marine" force that serves as a sub-department of Star Fleet in a sort of USN/USMC sort of arrangement.

I'm actually in the USN so I've based it a little bit on how the USMC actually is, but more on how (I think) the USMC would be in such a situation.

If you ever talk to a very senior NCO in the USMC you'll find that they are *NOT* brainless fighting machines - far from it. They are intelligent thinking people who have spent a lifetime in support of ideals and values they feel are important. They generally don't want to have to fight a war - but even more than that they certainly do not want to lose one as that would endanger the expression of those cherished values.

So, my UFP Marines are focused on one of the exact same missions as SF - protecting the values of the UFP and the freedom to express those values. In a very real way they are trained and prepared to fight to acheive this. A primary (usually THE primary) role is to train and equip the local defense forces. When SF is called into its defensive military role the UFPMC is called to provide the experienced core of the Federalized "ground" forces to augment the Fleet.

They do not act as "space borne infantry" i.e. manning security on ships or (usually) stations but rather protect and/or recapture UFP worlds threatened or invaded by outside forces.

I don't use Rapid Reaction Forces or anything Navy SEAL like in my game, but would if the plot called for it I suppose.

My very wordy two cents.

[StyroFoam Man]

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[Liz Not Beth]

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[Highway Hoss]

I tend to agree with JALU...I don't see a Federation Ground Force so much a number of planetary forces provided by member worlds...however, it would make sense for the Federation to have some kind of HQ/Admin structure to coordinate, transport and supply the various ground forces in time of war.
As for Starfleet, one idea I've been considering is a branch called the Starfleet Special Space Services (or S4 for short). I based the unit on the British SAS forces...it would be similar in concept to and perform missions like those of the Starfleet Rangers or Rapid Reaction Forces (it would in fact replace those forces). I have an excellent book on the SAS which I'll probably borrow from heavily in creating this organization.

[Dan Gurden]

Originally posted by JALU3
As for the Ronald Reagan Memorial Defense Platform . . . I Like it. Rather make it a defense ring around the Moon, like in Starship Troopers. But wait, this is trek, it wouldn't work. NM

Originally posted by StyroFoam Man
Then again after the thrashing that three Borg vessles and the Breen have given earth, prehaps they will take your advice!

(In our game universe they have! )

Personally, considering that the 'ringed' defence of the Mars defence perimetre has failed against all 3 assaults on Earth, I particularly doubt that Starfleet HQ would consider the same defence again just close enough to allow the enemies to sit outside the perimetre (if they happen to be too weak to breach it like everyone else), and pepper the Earth with long-range torpedos from there.

However surely this is by the by. And no longer a topic on Marines. Might this planetary defence topic serve better as its own thread, one that doesn't scare people away with the word Marine in the thread title?

[JALU3]

Well I'm happy to see that someone agrees with me. As for the S4 thing . . . interesting. And well, I haven't transfered to CODA, so as for me, there is no Dag Gone Starfleet Rangers.

And for the Love of God! Why can't people realize that Rangers aren't special forces. Any servicemember here in the States can tell you that.

They're just very well trained, self-sufficient, hardcore, quickly-deployable, Hooah Infantry.

And Liz, shame on you for thinking of FMR PRES Reagan like that. But, you have a point, 20th Century Gov't. Sign this, this and this, duplicate. Send here, here, and here. And accompany with Form DA XXXX.

[Dan Gurden]

Originally posted by JALU3
And for the Love of God! Why can't people realize that Rangers aren't special forces. Any servicemember here in the States can tell you that.

Which would be a valid arguement were this conversation to be focused on the US Armed Forces.

Pity that instead we are talking about Starfleet, a Fictional Paramilitary/Scientific Organisatio set 300 years after a member of the US Armed forces was responsible for WWIII.

Chances are, based on that history that the Rangers bear little similarity to the US Armed forces out of sheer shame at the magnitude of the cock-up.

And considering that the Rangers too are non canon, for all we know they could simply be a Vulcan Special Forces whose name (in Vulcan) directly translates to 'Rangers'...

But comparing them to todays military is like arguing that the Infantry should be called Longbowmen and that Tank Crews are Knights. Or trying to see the Connection between the Phlanx of the ancient Greek armies and the Anti-Missile defence system... See how ludicrous the comparrison is when put like that...

At the end of the day its a word. you dont like it, you change it... As you already have done... Now PLEASE can we all get over this Marine/marine/Infantry/Special Forces issue?

[marty4286]

hehe... Vulcan Special Forces...

Bolian Special Air Service...

[Antonsb214]

For the most part, I go with the Dominion War Sourcebook and its description of Starfleet Groundforces, and the LUG Player's Guide for RRT's. So, out of the millions of beings in Starfleet, you only have about 200,000 in Ground Forces. Ground Forces uses "infantry" ranks.

[Eric R.]

Originally posted by Dan Gurden
Which would be a valid arguement were this conversation to be focused on the US Armed Forces.

Pity that instead we are talking about Starfleet, a Fictional Paramilitary/Scientific Organisatio set 300 years after a member of the US Armed forces was responsible for WWIII.

It has never been stated which armed force Greene belonged to for all we know he could have been a Foregien officer serving in the Russian Military or the British or the Canadians for all that matter.

Chances are, based on that history that the Rangers bear little similarity to the US Armed forces out of sheer shame at the magnitude of the cock-up.

Actually the Starfleet Rangers have more in common with the 18th Century Rangers of Rogers and the 19th century Texas Rangers than with Darby's 20th century one's.

But comparing them to todays military is like arguing that the Infantry should be called Longbowmen

No, but Germany calls its light Infantry Jagers a term originally from the 16th century, Grenadiers from the late 17th Century is a term which is still around in the British army and in the US military still bears some relation to is original meaning.

and that Tank Crews are Knights.

Not knights, though the p[ublic has always viewed them as such, but at least the US, Brits and French still uas traditional cavalry terms, Lancers, Chavel'legers, Hussars and Cavalry to describe armor units. Trooper still refers to someone either who is a Paratrooper (Including Air Assualt) or a member of a Cavalry unit. The French use Legionier even though the last Roman Legionier was last seen in France over 1500 years ago.

Or trying to see the Connection between the Phlanx of the ancient Greek armies and the Anti-Missile defence system

The connection is easy, The Phlanx AD system is designed to put out a shield of bullets which nothing can penetrate much like nothing could penetrate a Greek or Macedonian Phlanx of spear men.

... See how ludicrous the comparrison is when put like that...

Nope.

Actually military terminology has a way of sticking around long after the original purpsoe has gone away. So it is quite concieviable that Starfleet, which uses ship names going back to the Ancient Greeks, would continue to use our modern terms in describing there forces. As having been stated the USMC is not the only Capitol M in the crowd, there is the British, Dutch, and Korean Marines.

[Kronok]

A most excellent response.

I guess this topic IS worth discussing???

[marty4286]

Let's invent a new and PC term for the Starfleet Marines

"Spacines" I mean, "Marine" implies seaborne :O