Murdering b@$+@&ds...

[Lt.Khrys Antos]

Posted by Ranconteur X:

The Palestinians have resorted to terror tactics in order to prevent their plight from being forgotten by the rest of the world. They know that terror is news and news, even the bad, keeps Palestine in the public eye. Israel has never bargained with the Palestinians in good faith, and Sharon has seen fit to destroy the reputation of the one individual whom the majority of Palestinians respected. Arafat no longer has the confidence of his people, and one can only wonder how soon the whole matter will come to genocide... of the Palestinian people. Should it go that far, Israel will become worse villains than any Hitler could ever be, in my mind, having passed through one Holocaust only to commit a second themselves.

Ehud Barak did and so have countless other negotiators. One must realize that everything has to go trough a vote in Israel, so a deal reached by diplomats may be rejected by the politiciens. As far as genocide goes, doubtful IMO, the Israelis have shown restraint for decades now. Their more content with walling themselves off from the outside than anything else.

To Evan Van Eyk:

Just because Arafat asked for help doesn't mean he "wanted" help. Their is a huge difference between what Arab leaders say to Westerners and what they say to their people.

As for Sharon going to the Temple Mount, why not? The Wailing Wall is there, the holiest site in the Jewish religion. The only remaining wall of the second temple of Judah. Arafat goes to the Al-Aqsa Mosque whenever he pleases. Each has a right to the religious sites.

Posted by C5:

Just curious (and ignorant) : how was the country of Israel created ? I mean, was it a chart signed by all countries recognizing the existence of Israel, a decree of the UN... ?

In 1948, Israelis had a war of independence and declared themselves a nation-state. They did NOT accept the British plan. That's why they revolted against it. The Palestinians are Arabs and NOT native to this land. They come from the Arab peninsula. There were papers, such as the Balfour Declaration, the White papers and some British-Egyptian communiques on the subject between 1919 and 1945. The British promised the land to both sides, in seperate agreements. Before 1914, Palestine was under Ottoman rule. As far as Arab rule goes, they've been there (as far as I can remember) since the beginning of the first crusade when they invaded Jerusalem.

BTW, Evan you are incorrect. The Palestinians were not first in the present area of Israel. The Jews can claim ancestral heritage to the land. They did after all have a diaspora from the land over 2,000 years ago. I really can't stress this enough, if we take historical claims as paramount then the Israelis have sole rights to the land. The Arabs are "foreigners" by this assessment.

[RaconteurX]

Originally posted by Lt.Khrys Antos
The Jews can claim ancestral heritage to the land. I really can't stress this enough, if we take historical claims as paramount then the Israelis have sole rights to the land.

You too are incorrect, Khrys. The Hebrews... from the Sumerian habiru meaning "wanderer" (i.e., a nomadic people)... are not themselves native to the land they claim. It is the land God promised them for upholding their end of the Covenant, not their ancestral home. Abraham, widely held as the father of the Hebrew people, was from the city of Ur in Mesopotamia, not the region currently claimed by the nation of Israel. From a strict historical perspective, Israel should be tussling with Saddam Hussein over the Fertile Crescent.

[marty4286]

People think that being Palestinian (stop the stupid quotes around "Palestinian" [argh, I'm doing it now!], whoever keeps doing it) means you have the same cultural identity as let's say... the ones inhabiting Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or even Jordan!

Other Arab countries don't accept Palestinians or if they do, not treat them well because they feel they are different. It's like China, ignorant westerners can't tell between Manchurian, Mongolian, or Cantonese people/culture. Even though Jordan (formerly Transjordan and formerly eastern part of Palestine) has a Palestinian majority, they are under the control of the Hashemites.

Palestinians are opressed in Israel and the disputed areas, but other Arabs are have citizenship and are even in the Knesset. Those Arab-Israelis are mostly Bedouins (spelling?) with only a tiny amount of people we would consider Palestinian. They are very patriotic to their homeland, although they aren't treated as well as their Jewish neighbors, even serve proudly in the army.

There is also a misconception that all Palestinians and also all Arabs in general are Muslim. 10+% of Palestinians are Christian and a smaller percentage are Jewish (they have citizenship in Israel and aren't opressed). Then there are the Yemeni Jews, who were rescued by the Israelis in the 60's who are obviously Arabs (where's Yemen?).

Seriously, the total ignorance of most people really bothers me. It's just like saying that since Philippinos, Thai, Vietnamese, and Indonesians are descendant of Malays, they are all the same! If you really can't tell the difference, do us a favor and shut up. Your lack of knowledge on the subject means that important parts of what you say are invalid.

Also, the reason Sharon's visit to the temple mount pissed off the Palestinian muslims was because he visited the Dome of the Rock. The Dome of the Rock is what the muslims consider holy in the temple mount, while the Jews visit the wailing wall (they are right beside each other). Ariel Sharon, a very right wing, fundamentalist Jew, and blatant anti-Palestinian came to the Dome of the Rock specifically to incite unrest. That he did.

[REG]

I'm Malay? It must be because I'm filipinos, Ilocano to be regionally and ethnically correct (my parents are Ilocanos which is Spanish-influenced, despite my birth is in Hawaii).

And yes, the Philippines are a mixture of Muslim and Christian denominations, dominance favored the Christians. Most Ilocanos are (if you've just got here, I've always say I'm a lapse Catholics). Whether we're Christian or Muslim or of any religious or atheist denomination, we're all filipinos.

Still, I do not like the Abu Sayeff and their method of terror, and if given a chance, I would kill them on the spot, despite we share ancestry.

* sighs *

I hate it when the Moderates does nothing but talk. Personally they should take actions against their own extremist elements, which is something Yassar Arafat should do. As for wanting him dead, that's not the Israeli's fault. As long as Arafat continues to allow the terror to continue without any effort to put those responsible under arrest and convict them, he falls short of respect in my eyes.

But it is the people who revere him, and anyone who objects him ends up in the gutter. That's why the the 10% minority Palestinian Christians can't do nothing unless they want to be end up vanished. IOW, majority rules.

BTW, don't you hate when a fundamentalist with so little education except for the Koran accuse other Mulsim of not being a Muslim? It's as if they've been ordained to judge who is Muslim and who is not. Who gives them the right to judge? Only Allah, or God have that right.

[marty4286]

I'm Philippino too. Mostly Tagalog, but also a bit of Illocano.

We = descendants of ancient Malays.

The Palestinians do not consider this a holy war or anything like that, just the extremist arabs that are outside of the disputed lands (Osama Bin Laden comes to mind) do. The 10% that are Christian are not "forced" to support anything. Yassir Arafat also recognizes them in speeches.

I'm taking no side in this debate, just correcting misconceptions or clarifying intents. I'm no moderate either, I just gave up on the Middle East...

But I WILL add my 2 cents on one part: Ariel Sharon and Yassir Arafat are relics of a bygone era, their continued leadership is reason enough why peace won't come to the area for years to come.

[Evan van Eyk]

Originally posted by calguard66

If the "average" "Palestinian" is weary of war he must do something about those who are blowing up busses in his name.

That is my opinion either. The people have on both sides have to make clear that they no longer want war. (Wow Calguard and me have the same opinion for the second time within a day - including the Sudetenland - reunification comparrison )

[Evan van Eyk]

Originally posted by C5
Thanks for the link, Pelagius, I will take the time to study the articles there.

BTW, why do you seem to be so bitter already ? Wait to have participated to a thread discussing Enteprise, US international politics, or CODA and D20, and you'll have reasons to be bitter (though to be fair, we very seldom come up with insults) !!

Regarding this it might be interesting to start a thread to discuss the connection of B&B's mistreatement of Star Trek Cannon and the large Coda and D20 conspiracy which actually is the drive behind US politics ( i gues they simply want to spread the D20 system all over the world ) as Mr. bush is in secret a passionate D20 GM.

[Doug Burke]

Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
as Mr. bush is in secret a passionate D20 GM.

Nah. Everyone knows that Al Gore was the gamer candidate in 2002...

"I'm an 11th Level Vice President!" - Al Gore, "Anthology of Interest I" (Futurama)

[Lt.Khrys Antos]

Posted by Raconteur X:

You too are incorrect, Khrys. The Hebrews... from the Sumerian habiru meaning "wanderer" (i.e., a nomadic people)... are not themselves native to the land they claim. It is the land God promised them for upholding their end of the Covenant, not their ancestral home. Abraham, widely held as the father of the Hebrew people, was from the city of Ur in Mesopotamia, not the region currently claimed by the nation of Israel. From a strict historical perspective, Israel should be tussling with Saddam Hussein over the Fertile Crescent.

My mistake on saying that it is their historical homeland. To my knowledge the Jewish Torah states that Israel is "their" land, given to them by God. Arabs only came there afterwards. So like I said if you consider historical land claims as the most important reason for giving the land to any group, then the Israelis were there first.

Posted by Marty4286:

But I WILL add my 2 cents on one part: Ariel Sharon and Yassir Arafat are relics of a bygone era, their continued leadership is reason enough why peace won't come to the area for years to come.

Absolutely true.

BTW, Bedouins are NOT palestinians. A Bedouin would feel insulted by such a statement. Just like the Hashemites despise the Sa'ad. And even the Palestinian group is considered fairly new, sephardic Jews were Palestinians in the Ottoman empire. But Arabs in general share the same language, script and ethnic background.

[marty4286]

Originally posted by Lt.Khrys Antos
Posted by Raconteur X:
BTW, Bedouins are NOT palestinians. A Bedouin would feel insulted by such a statement. Just like the Hashemites despise the Sa'ad. And even the Palestinian group is considered fairly new, sephardic Jews were Palestinians in the Ottoman empire. But Arabs in general share the same language, script and ethnic background.

I hope that wasn't directed at me, I didn't say anything of the sort .

[Lt.Khrys Antos]

Posted by marty4286:

I hope that wasn't directed at me, I didn't say anything of the sort .

Not at all, I just wanted to point that out. I've seen people make that mistake. Hell, I even made that mistake once and was asked to apoligize.

Just wanted to clarify the fact that Arabs may vary in national identity, but they are one homogenous group. Which does have internal rivalries.

[Cybrludite]

Larry Miller on his visit to some hospitals in Israel. Meanwhile, Dr. Abidel Aziz-Rantisi had this to say about the Israelis. "I want to tell the Zionists: There is no place for you here and there is no difference between one place in Palestine and the other. All of our land is usurped, and our warriors have the right to launch their strikes anywhere they wish.", including, no doubt, such vital military instalations like pizza shops, discos, bar mitzvas, seder dinners, bus stops, school busses, and college cafeterias. Sure am glad it's a peaceful religion they follow. Hate to see what they'd do if they followed a violent one...

[marty4286]

Don't blame the religion because of a vocal minority.

If I did what you are doing, I could say Catholicism is just a violent cult full of child molesters!

*cough*IRA*cough*

*cough*Priestsmolestingaltarboys*cough*

[Capt.Hunter]

And amazing how many of our US boarders are going for the "historical precedence" argument - watch out guys, the Native Americans are listening!!

Just for the record, the Israeli responses to terror attacks are a form of terrorism in their own right. I mean, a tank driving down a street, having rocks chucked at it by ten-year old kids - not a gunman in sight - and it opens fire?! Hello? And the sad fact is, if it hadn't accidentally wounded a UN Aid worker, we'd never have heard about it...

[Evan van Eyk]

You are looking at it in the wrong angle, Hunter. That actually shows how dangrous the Palastinians are. Even there kids can only be opposed by Israeli tanks.

I remember the time, when the chapel in Bethlehem was sieged, along with the orphanhouse cared for by nons ( Is that right spelling, I speak of the friendly woman of church orders ). It was shot upon by tanks either. The children had nothing to do with the whole thing, as did not the monk of the chapel who was shot.
And the Palastininians which had sought shelter in there, were not even leaders or otherwise important, it were just ordinary troops.

In my point of view, a country which fires upon children to get some criminals is not worth fighting for and actually already lost the war along with its dignity.