Murdering b@$+@&ds...

[Capt.Hunter]

The glimmer of hope there being the growing numbers of Israeli soldiers who refuse to serve within the Occupied Territories out of disgust at the level of overkill being used...

[Cybrludite]

Originally posted by Capt.Hunter
The glimmer of hope there being the growing numbers of Israeli soldiers who refuse to serve within the Occupied Territories out of disgust at the level of overkill being used...

And where is the "glimmer of hope" of growing number of Palistinians refusing to blow up schoolbusses? Oh, that's right, the PA uses them to decorate lampposts as a warning to others.

[Capt.Hunter]

That's why it's called a "glimmer" of hope as opposed to a "beacon". I never said it was all good news. But then a sizable number of Palestinians have said that if the Occupation ceases there will be no need for further suicide attacks. While I get "Give a Mouse a Cookie" rammed down my thoat every time I say this, I genuinely don't believe they're all lying...

[Cybrludite]

Originally posted by marty4286
Don't blame the religion because of a vocal minority.

If I did what you are doing, I could say Catholicism is just a violent cult full of child molesters!

*cough*IRA*cough*

*cough*Priestsmolestingaltarboys*cough*

I've heard lots of Catholics take the Church to task for the child molestation scandal, and for violence like the IRA's attacks, the Crusades, the Spanish colonization of the New World (especially the Re-conquest in New Mexico), witch-burnings, and the horror of the 30 Years War. With the exception of the IRA, though, most of that violence is past tense. And they're still saying mea culpa over it. You don't see folks dancing in the streets of Belfast whenever The Troubles kick up a notch.

[Cybrludite]

Originally posted by Capt.Hunter
That's why it's called a "glimmer" of hope as opposed to a "beacon". I never said it was all good news. But then a sizable number of Palestinians have said that if the Occupation ceases there will be no need for further suicide attacks. While I get "Give a Mouse a Cookie" rammed down my thoat every time I say this, I genuinely don't believe they're all lying...

However most of the ones in power say, in Arabic after the western news crews have left, words similar to Dr. Abidel Aziz-Rantisi. Surf over to http://www.memri.org/ and have a look for yourself. The PA has a worse negotiating record than the US has with the Indians...

[Capt.Hunter]

Cybrludite, I was talking about your average Palestinian in the street (assuming you can find one on the street given the Israeli "shoot and ask questions later" policy...), which the Brit news programmes interview quite regularly - not sure if the US channels do or nay.

[Lt.Khrys Antos]

Posted by Capt.Hunter:

Cybrludite, I was talking about your average Palestinian in the street (assuming you can find one on the street given the Israeli "shoot and ask questions later" policy...), which the Brit news programmes interview quite regularly - not sure if the US channels do or nay.

Yes, but people don't negotiate with yoru average citizen, they negotiate with the elite. And that elite as Cybrludite is trying to say, is no interested in a lasting peace.

Posted by Capt.Hunter:

But then a sizable number of Palestinians have said that if the Occupation ceases there will be no need for further suicide attacks. While I get "Give a Mouse a Cookie" rammed down my thoat every time I say this, I genuinely don't believe they're all lying...

They mean, when the occupation ends on "their" terms. And yes the "Give a mouse a cookie" principle applies here. When their were airplane hijackings in the 1970-80's, the only thing that stopped them was the constant use of force.

The difference in Palestine is that the one's doing it don't always listen to their PA leader. Their interests are not his interests. Oh and I also don't believe their all lying, just a sizable majority...

[Capt.Hunter]

The problem with the Cookie philosophy is that it bars negotiation. Are we saying we can never meet any of the Palestinians' requests (even if we're just granting them their rights) because it's "acceding to terrorist demands"?

[StyroFoam Man]

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

[Capt.Hunter]

Only just spotted your disclaimer in time there, Styro, or not even hiding behind the Almighty IBG would've saved your ass...

[Dan Stack]

Well, I'll stick my neck way out then and say that in a large part I agree with Styro's non-serious point. With nothing to save my ass from Capt. Hunter.

It seems foolish not to recognize the inherent danger of negotiating with terrorists in such a manner. Especially from the perspective of Israel.

Might it be something you have to do? I suppose there might be times, but as a rule, I feel it is a bad idea. A very bad idea.

"See, we got them to give us a state because we kept killing their toddlers. Next we'll go for all of Jerusalem and an unlimited right of return. And it'll be easier now that we have our own state."

And for the record, I'm earnestly serious.

Does this mean Isreal should never ever negotiate? Of course not. But it means it should be very careful when doing so. And it should carefully choose who it negotiates with.

I await my ass-whooping.

[StyroFoam Man]

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

[marty4286]

I think we should put the blame solely on Yassir Arafat and the PLA. They considered themselves to be a "government in exile" and they decieved others including Israel into thinking that they really were. So Israel they gave them the control of the PA when it was formed... Even though the reason those talks even started were because of the first Intifadah, of which neither the PLA nor Arafat had anything to do with (they were sitting on their hands in Tunisia at the time). If Israel wasn't tricked, and instead dealt with the leaders of the first Intifadah, I don't think we would have the trouble we are having today (it could be bad, but not worse than this).

[Evan van Eyk]

I think the average Palastinian is as sick of the war as Israelis. I do no believe they like to loose their children either to retaliation by the opponents or by assaults of the army and suicide attacks of the terrorists. It is actually quite simple - you stop and we stop fighting too. The problem is the leaders do not want the war to stop.
Arafat would loose the position he now has, because he is a military leader, no internation statesman. So is Sharon. He is a man to lead in crisis who know how to deal with terrorists ( or is believed to know ) due to his military experience. However in peace he would not be needed. His diplomatic skills disqualify him for doing the negotiations himself thus somebody else would be needed - who would turn into the spotlight then. His political career would be ended quite fast.
And there is no motivation. Their children are not killed and they themselves are save.
The Palastinian people have to drop Arafat and elect a more moderate leader, hopefully somebody with international reputation better than terrorist and so have the Israelis. They need sombody who is no Archenemy of the Palastinians, no military who has to much hate to negotiate. The problem is, I do not believe they would come into play as long as the other two are still in charge and the question is - are there such people.
I can only hope that the people of Israel and I mean all of them, finally realize that they can manage peace only together. It won't be something finished within months or even years. There are whole generations which hate each other thus it will take new generations to form a union, but it can work.
Look at the German past. We were not so well liked past WWII, but our internation reputation grew and we actually formed friendship, and close ones, with those who we once fought.
I can only hope something happens soon, because I am sick of listening to the news of new assasinations and retaliations, an I am not even living there. The inhabitant have to go through hell and this has to end.

[First of Two]

Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
I think the average Palastinian is as sick of the war as Israelis. I do no believe they like to loose their children either to retaliation by the opponents or by assaults of the army and suicide attacks of the terrorists

I assume you're not counting those freakazoids who dressed their baby up like a suicide bomber, or those freakazoids who are actually out their encouraging their kids to become those same suicide-attacking terrorists or inciting them to throw stones at armed men or giving them weapons instead of toys. Not those average folks, the other ones.

It takes people to elect a leader, and it takes people obeying that leader to give him power. You could declare yourself Holy Roman Emperor, but if no one follows you you're just a guy with a funny hat.

IIRC, the Israelis had a moderate leader or two before Sharon. I don't recall the Palestinians being impressed.