Murdering b@$+@&ds...

[Dan Stack]

I'm not certain how one could say Israel has never negotiated in good faith - certainly they have not been perfect saints, but aside from our favorite nation of Sealand, I can't think of one nation that such a judgement could be held up to.

Is it true that there is much ugliness and even terrorism associated with the creation of Israel - yes.

However... Israel as a nation did choose to negotiate with an organization with a "mission statement" being the anihilation of Israel. It chose to negotiate with a terrorist who, while saying the right things in English, has proven very hesitant to do so in Arabic.

Arafat's Palestinian Authority was given one heck of an offer. Can one argue that it was imperfect? Certainly. But the response of Arafat was very disheartening - presented with a very serious Israeli compromise (giving up full control of Jerusalem) he did not respond by asking for more, he walked away. And soon thereafter there is the uprising.

If you are an Israeli citizen on the street, how would you react? How trusting would you be? If you are in the government, what would your new negotiating position be? A unilateral withdrawl from what is considered to be Palestinian territory? They've already told you at the negotiating table that's not even a fraction of what they want.

Would you trust the UN to be fair and unbiased?

These aren't hypothetical questions. They are the questions being faced by the Israelis every day.

(And yes, there are questions being faced by the Palestinian people and leaders every day as well. The foremost being - What do you want? Others being What are you prepared to do for it? Do you hate the Israelis more than you love your children? )

[Liz Not Beth]

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

[Evan van Eyk]

Originally posted by Cybrludite
Mind telling me just how it's Israel's fault that folks are still held there? At any rate, Israel offered Arafat 98% of what he was asking for, with the remaining 2% open for discussion & compromise. He responed with the second Intafada, resulting in the deaths of over 500 Israelis and over 1000 Palestinians.

Israel government frbids the people to leave their camp. They are underpriviliged in society concerning jobs, social security and justice as well. They are forced to leave in the poor areas the Israelis do not want to live in anything else is taken away from them.
But you are right. Mr. Barak and certainly not least Mr. Clinton managed to set something up. When this was in the news I actually thought - now that is something. It may not be the final answer to the conflict, but it could make the peace needed to find that ending solution and to make them learn how to live together peacefully. I was shocked when Arafat disagreed with that generous offer. Something which 'broke Barak's neck'.
His government was dissolved and Sharon came into power.
I said so before, that this present conflict is primarily created by Arafts denial of the agreements.

In fact that is in my opinion what Arafat actually feared - peace.
He is a military leader, bron out of a neccessity. A Palistinian state would have no use for him as leader, because he knows nothing about international relations, economics or anything else to lead a state. What he knows is how to kill people and manipulate press in a way which comforts his position ( a skill, which sadly seems to be the requirement of a politician rahter than the people's will ).
Actually Sharon and Arafat are very much the same and the conflict would not be different with positions exchanged. If Sharon would be a Palastinian and Arafat and Israeli, they war would rage on the same way. And you are right, Dan, Palastinians want to destroy Israel, and thus the whole situation would not change if the Palastinians were the power in the Holy Land. And one has to remember, that the actual beginners of the whole misery were the Palastinians either. When Israel was formed, they called all Arabs to attack and destroy it - and failed.

However this does not mean Israel is right in surpressing them nor is Palastina in killing innocent children. the point is - one has to trust, one has to forgive or this war will rage on until none of them survived.

And Dan, I tell you how I would react being an Israeli. I would cry, seeing so many young people die, I would cry seeing children bombed because they are of a certain religion and fullfil a purpose. This whole situation is something completely alien to me.
Over here in Germany we have Islam people, Christians, Jews, and far more rare religions. And we do not shoot at each other and kill our children. Why the heck they cannot live as one nation?

[Dan Stack]

Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
And Dan, I tell you how I would react being an Israeli. I would cry, seeing so many young people die, I would cry seeing children bombed because they are of a certain religion and fullfil a purpose. This whole situation is something completely alien to me.

On that we agree.

I asked those questions because it is often so easy to think we (i.e. anyone outside of the situation) have an answer. "If they'd just do this then...")

But when thinking about it, I've of late tried to put myself more into the situation of those involved. And my conclusion was... thank God I'm an American and not an Israeli or Palestinian. I could not for the world think of a way out, not with the positions both sides, for whatever reason, find themselves in.

[calguard66]

Like it or not the Palestinians are people without a country. "Palestine" is/ was a region, never a nation. The land they live on does not belong to them, it belongs to Israel... or belonged to one of Israel's neighbors before being lost in war.

The Israelis can't afford to let Palestinians have unrestricted access to Israel... they can't afford to keep buying busses.

The Arabs/ Palestinians were blowing up Israelis and trying to "push Israel into the sea" fifty years ago, and have never stopped... the current situation is just a pretext. Even if there were no restrictions on the Palestinians whatsoever, even if they were granted citizenship, there would still be war against Israel.

Israel has been fighting a war for it's existance, and for the lives of it's people, continuously for over 50 years. It is forced by world politics and public opinion to fight this war with one hand tied, while allowing it's enemies to live on the very soil Israeli soldiers fought and died for.

Americans wouldn't stand for it.

Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
I agree that one holocaust was enough and I wonder why Israel practices methods other dictators used before.

[C5]

Just curious (and ignorant) : how was the country of Israel created ? I mean, was it a chart signed by all countries recognizing the existence of Israel, a decree of the UN... ?

I realised I really don't know the answer to that question.

[Evan van Eyk]

Originally posted by calguard66
Like it or not the Palestinians are people without a country. "Palestine" is/ was a region, never a nation. The land they live on does not belong to them, it belongs to Israel... or belonged to one of Israel's neighbors before being lost in war.

Even if there were no restrictions on the Palestinians whatsoever, even if they were granted citizenship, there would still be war against Israel.

Israel has been fighting a war for it's existance, and for the lives of it's people, continuously for over 50 years.

Yet they are a people and by the UN charata, which Israel signed as well has the right of self-determination. If they say we want an own state, they have the right to do this. Of course that does not mean Israel has to leave immidiately and give them anything they want, but you have to remember Israel was created by the British in 1948 it had not existed before. Before that time, it was Palastinian ground, although no real state of that name existed.
And I think you are wrong, when you say that without restrictions, this war would rage on. Maybe some fundamantalists would do a causal bomb attack but that does ETA in Spain as well nevertheless the major parts of the country live in peace.
How doy ou convince a young man ( and woman ) to bomb himself and others into hell, if they have everything they need, f they can be sure their children are treated equally to Israel ones, have the same education and the same possibilites concernng job. Those people have losts perspections which is misused by the fundamantlists.

Israel surpressed a good part of their people for the last 50 years, which is never good. They blame the chidlren and grand children for what their parents and grandparents did 50 years ago only because they are Palastinian. They condem a whole people - so why should they not do for what they are blaimed.
When in 1990 South Africa ceased to exists nobody lost a tear about that. The state was created by European ones and finally surpressed a good deal of its population. They told them where to live, what to do...
The same does Israel. Nobody blaimed the Black inhabitants of SA, why they became violent - the Palastinians are denied that option. While I do not see violence as an option, you may not wonder that violence is answered by violence again.

What Israel does is injust - what Palastinia does is injust as well.
But you cannot arrest the family of a murderer just because the father murdered somebody. That won't work and is injust - at least in the country I live in. But still this is practiced by Israel and Palastina alike. they hate each other because of their origin.

No matter. I see it is a crime to bomb a bus and I think it is a crime to bomb houses. The essence is the same - people are killed.
And i tell you something. If you fight terrorists which threat you existence and begin to use their methods, begin not to care about children killed or innnocents dying, than you already lost the war, because you destroyed yourself or your very essence.

[Pelagius]

Originally posted by calguard66
Like it or not the Palestinians are people without a country. "Palestine" is/ was a region, never a nation.

Actually they do have a country, its called Jordan.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html

C5: You will find something here.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/lawwar.htm

The only good Palestinian is a dead Palestinian.

No body call this statement IDIOTIC. Should it not be deleted. Guess you would also have to delete the anti-Israel stuff too.

The simplest way to solve this problem would be for Isreal to round 'em all up, gas them, and

Sigh........

[calguard66]

How was Israel repressing the Palestinians responsible for 1948? 1957? 1967? 1973?

The "Palestinians" are Arab Muslims... they cannot abide the existance of the state of Israel. Many are not even native to the former Palestine region, they are refugees from elsewhere.

If they have a "right to self detrermination" and their own state, do the Turks living in Germany have the same right? Perhaps Germany would be willing to give up a slice of it's territory to the PLO?

Israel was created by the UN... as much as I dislike the UN, what's done is done. The original idea was that Arab and Jew would live together in the country... but instead the Arabs attacked. The rest is history.

Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
Yet they are a people and by the UN charata, which Israel signed as well has the right of self-determination. If they say we want an own state, they have the right to do this. Of course that does not mean Israel has to leave immidiately and give them anything they want, but you have to remember Israel was created by the British in 1948 it had not existed before. Before that time, it was Palastinian ground, although no real state of that name existed.
And I think you are wrong, when you say that without restrictions, this war would rage on. Maybe some fundamantalists would do a causal bomb attack but that does ETA in Spain as well nevertheless the major parts of the country live in peace.
How doy ou convince a young man ( and woman ) to bomb himself and others into hell, if they have everything they need, f they can be sure their children are treated equally to Israel ones, have the same education and the same possibilites concernng job. Those people have losts perspections which is misused by the fundamantlists.

Israel surpressed a good part of their people for the last 50 years, which is never good. They blame the chidlren and grand children for what their parents and grandparents did 50 years ago only because they are Palastinian. They condem a whole people - so why should they not do for what they are blaimed.
When in 1990 South Africa ceased to exists nobody lost a tear about that. The state was created by European ones and finally surpressed a good deal of its population. They told them where to live, what to do...
The same does Israel. Nobody blaimed the Black inhabitants of SA, why they became violent - the Palastinians are denied that option. While I do not see violence as an option, you may not wonder that violence is answered by violence again.

What Israel does is injust - what Palastinia does is injust as well.
But you cannot arrest the family of a murderer just because the father murdered somebody. That won't work and is injust - at least in the country I live in. But still this is practiced by Israel and Palastina alike. they hate each other because of their origin.

No matter. I see it is a crime to bomb a bus and I think it is a crime to bomb houses. The essence is the same - people are killed.
And i tell you something. If you fight terrorists which threat you existence and begin to use their methods, begin not to care about children killed or innnocents dying, than you already lost the war, because you destroyed yourself or your very essence.

[Evan van Eyk]

Originally posted by calguard66
How was Israel repressing the Palestinians responsible for 1948? 1957? 1967? 1973?

The "Palestinians" are Arab Muslims... they cannot abide the existance of the state of Israel.
If they have a "right to self detrermination" and their own state, do the Turks living in Germany have the same right? Perhaps Germany would be willing to give up a slice of it's territory to the PLO?

Israel was created by the UN... as much as I dislike the UN, what's done is done. The original idea was that Arab and Jew would live together in the country... but instead the Arabs attacked. The rest is history.

Actually that is moe a counterargument for your side. The Turks certainly could not ask for their own state here in Germany, because they first of all already have one and additionally are only guests here ( sorry, first come, first serve ). And the Palastinians were first there where now Israel is. UN decided to put them together - a not ilogical step concerning the Jewish origins and it is unexcusable how the Palastinians reacted, espceically concerning the suffering of the Jewish people in the recent past. However that does not make right to surpress them now. That is the point about injustice - it cannot be justified.
Please see, that I do not want to make any group of people responsible for what happened - as you said what is done is done. But that does not mean that they have to kill themselves for ever. They could simply stop - both of them and finally live in peace.

[Cybrludite]

Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
Actually that is moe a counterargument for your side. The Turks certainly could not ask for their own state here in Germany, because they first of all already have one and additionally are only guests here ( sorry, first come, first serve ).

FIrst come, first serve? Fine. Give the land back to the Celts, you eastern barbarians! Technically, we'd have to then give it back to the lake cultures or whomever, but they're long extinct...

[Liz Not Beth]

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

[calguard66]

There's no way the could "just stop" too many extremists on both sides. I only favor the Israelis because IMO the conflict was started by the Arabs... and Israel has been somewhat more restrained.

If it's first come, first served... shouldn't Israel belong to the Caananites, and Germany to the Visigoths or someone? The "Palestinians" have several nations already as well... Egypt, Jordan, Syria, etc. It is interesting to note that there nations are eager to villify Israel for their treatment of fellow Arabs, but are unwilling to allow those same Arabs into their own countries.

In any case, I think that the "Palestinians", or anyone, have a perfect right to wage war against Israel. I am a firm believer in the use of violence to settle disputes. In doing so, however, they must accept the consequences of waging war on their own doorstep.

If the "average" "Palestinian" is weary of war he must do something about those who are blowing up busses in his name.

Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
Actually that is moe a counterargument for your side. The Turks certainly could not ask for their own state here in Germany, because they first of all already have one and additionally are only guests here ( sorry, first come, first serve ). And the Palastinians were first there where now Israel is. UN decided to put them together - a not ilogical step concerning the Jewish origins and it is unexcusable how the Palastinians reacted, espceically concerning the suffering of the Jewish people in the recent past. However that does not make right to surpress them now. That is the point about injustice - it cannot be justified.
Please see, that I do not want to make any group of people responsible for what happened - as you said what is done is done. But that does not mean that they have to kill themselves for ever. They could simply stop - both of them and finally live in peace.

[C5]

Originally posted by Pelagius
Actually they do have a country, its called Jordan.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html

C5: You will find something here.

Thanks for the link, Pelagius, I will take the time to study the articles there.

BTW, why do you seem to be so bitter already ? Wait to have participated to a thread discussing Enteprise, US international politics, or CODA and D20, and you'll have reasons to be bitter (though to be fair, we very seldom come up with insults) !!

[Kevin]

The fault of this war falls squarely on the Palistinians.

Here is my reasoning.

If Israel stops their end of the fighting would there be an end to the Homocide Bombing and the killing on the Palistinian end? No it would continue and probably increase.

If Palistein ends its attacks would Israeli tanks still roll into the west bank and gaza? No. why would they? Israel is a Democratic nation and needs world support. If they opress for no reason how can anyone back them.

Palistein needs to end the violence the intiative is theirs. Doesn't anyone notice a pattern in these attacks? The Pals bomb some civilian target. the next day IDF tanks roll into a town, place a curfew, round up militants. All goes quiet and relatively peaceful. Tanks leave. All is quiet all is calm. Until Some Dumbass with a bomb kills more civilians. It is clear who is the actor and who is the reactor in this situation.

The Palistinians in the occupied terrortories are responsible for their own situation by choosing to continue the fight over peace. They live in "refugee camps" because they refuse to let go and except that the lands giving to Israel in 48 are not theirs. Israelis don't fight Arabs because they are Arab. Plenty of Arabs live as Israeli citizens they even serve in the Parliment. Israelis don't hate arabs they hate being attacked over and over agian by many of them.

I have no sympathy for those who dilerbrately kill inocents. If Hamas and alike kept targets to military targets I would have more respect for their cause. Unfortunately they haven't so I don't I couldn't care any less as to their WHY. Israel has shown incredable restraint in this matter. Because Palistein holds the key to end this peacefully as does Israel has the power to end this brutaly.

You say Sharon has need to keep this going to keep him in power. I say he has more motive to bring peace. The leader to end this once and for all will go down as Israel's greatest leader. But he knows he can't so all he can do is protect his people and fight back.