Murdering b@$+@&ds...

[marty4286]

I'd respond to that if it had a little coherence and a whiff of sense to it. And less shouting. People with weak positions shout.

People with weak positions make poor excuses to make their poor selves feel better.

[C5]

Tien An Menh proves that, sometimes, voicing one's disapproval of the government leads to absolutely nothing, save one's death.

And there is something called misinformation, too. Remember, not everyone has access to a few dozens of TV channels, another dozen of newspapers and the Internet. I doubt the average Palestinian has, for instance. So when every source of information you have plays the same sound, you can become very well convinced that your government is doing the right thing (alternatively, you can have NO information at all, and just have people around you shouting that THEY have the information and that this information leads to the destruction of whoever).
Can you judge someone guilty for having been deceived ?

[Capt.Hunter]

Plus there's the fact that, while the Palestinian people might not like Arafat, they're a hell of a lot more scared of the Israelis. Look at Bush. Prior to 9/11 he's a laughing stock who everyone imagines will easily lose support. Now his approval ratings are through the roof. The man hasn't changed (at least, I can't see a sudden apparent increase in his IQ or his ability to find his own ass without a roadmap), but since the American people are afraid of the nebulous foe, they've rallied behind him.

Hitler knew this - institute reasonable and popular policies to gain public support. Then, when you start the nasty stuff, people are less inclined to speak out, since they've supported you from the beginning. Humans inherently dislike change, paradoxically even change for the better.

And yes, we need to stop judging people who don't stand up to their leaders. We can't know whether we'd be any different in that situation. First of Two, I know you have a military background, but then when a soldier fights, he has a gun. He has comrades. He has resources backing him up. When a civilian fights, all he has is his courage and possibly a stick - the guys with the guns, buddies and resources are the ones trying to kill him...

[Dan Stack]

I'm a westerner too. But I do have at least some familiarity with eastern philosophy and help out teaching a Tai C'hi class, so I'm familiar with when instructing not making "judgements", not finding "errors" but making "adjustments".

However, I am still a westerner, and it western philosphy is as valid a philosophy as any other. Is it not passing judgement to call westerners judgemental?

Seriously, I believe that governments have no choice but to be judgemental. Doing otherwise leads to paralysis.

"Well yes, the Twin Towers were hit. We know the terrorists have training facilities in Afghanistan, but the people of the Middle East have legitimate grievances and the Taliban is a valid a way of life as any other so we will take no action."

"Yesterday, December 7, a day that will live in infamy. My fellow Americans, the Empire of Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. Yet it is important to realize that the attack was provoked deliberately by the United States, as we would not sell Japan our surplus scrap metal. Therefore it would be wrong to pass judgement on Japan. And I cannot lead us to war, for many innocent Japanese may die in such a war who wish us no ill and would rise up against their government if they could. Indeed, many of their soldiers are conscripts and we do not have the right to fight them - they really had no choice but to participate in military action. And remember, above all else, my fellow Americans, remember that the culture of Japan is different from our own."

[Capt.Hunter]

Dan, I don't think anyone's advocating that sort of thinking - there are certain acts so morally reprehensible that they should not be tolerated by any culture. But outside of such acts, we should respect other cultures more. Anything less leads to misunderstandings, outright xenophobia and an "Us and Them" mentality that is inherently dangerous to all concerned. Since 9/11, for example, anti-Moslem sentiment has skyrocketed, despite the vast majority of Moslems openly condemning the attacks. We have people claiming Moslems are barbaric because they force women to cover up - whereas a good many "liberated" Western Moslem women have actually come forward and defended it as part of their cultural heritage (you wouldn't stop a Rasta wearing his brightly-coloured hat, now would you?).

And yes, it is judgemental to condemn Western cultures for being too judgemental - but as Joe Dredd once said, "If a Judge is above the law - then there is no law". Someone else said something about casting the first stone, which may also have some relevance...

[Cybrludite]

Originally posted by Capt.Hunter
Hitler knew this - institute reasonable and popular policies to gain public support.

Thank you, Herta Daeubler-Gmelin...

Originally posted by Capt.Hunter
And yes, we need to stop judging people who don't stand up to their leaders. We can't know whether we'd be any different in that situation. First of Two, I know you have a military background, but then when a soldier fights, he has a gun. He has comrades. He has resources backing him up. When a civilian fights, all he has is his courage and possibly a stick - the guys with the guns, buddies and resources are the ones trying to kill him...

Sticks like this, this, this or these?

[Lt.Khrys Antos]

Posted by marty4286:

(also given asylum in America by an extreme-right wing idiot, Ronald Reagan).

You say people make ignorant and stupid statements. You've just made one.

Posted by C5:

And there is something called misinformation, too. Remember, not everyone has access to a few dozens of TV channels, another dozen of newspapers and the Internet. I doubt the average Palestinian has, for instance. So when every source of information you have plays the same sound, you can become very well convinced that your government is doing the right thing (alternatively, you can have NO information at all, and just have people around you shouting that THEY have the information and that this information leads to the destruction of whoever).

Lets take the example of Eastern Europe. There was Soviet misinformation, but so what? Its not as if no one knew why there wasn't enough food in the stores and where political prisoners were disposed of. People are not dumb sheep. There are informal ties people share where information is dispersed. The people of Poland, Slovakia, Romanian, etc... rose up and overthrew the communists and in some cases killed them.
In Romania, the communist party chiefs were being rounded by civilians and hanged. The father of one of my Romanian friend was there and he helped organize it. Why? Because the communists had betrayed Romania and its people to "them". As far as he was concerned the aparatchniks deserved it.

For the better part of the Cold War all of these people's had been told that the Americans are evil bastards who want to destroy them. Fact is that after the 1990's, any U.S. president visiting Eastern Europe is treated very well. Massive crowds come out to greet him, their's a belief that the Americans helped them achieve their freedom (Reagan specifically).


Part of living in states is that the civilians under it are responsible for their government. If their afraid for their lives or are too old to stand up then that is THEIR problem. I mean that. My father was one of the organizers of Solidarnosc in Poland, he damn knew what was going to happen if the Soviets clamped down. Fact is he continued. My grandfather fought in the resistance during WW2, people do stand up against inavders and dictators. And the fact is tha in Palestine they do not.

People can also resist in non-lethal methods. I don't understand this, First of Two specifically mentioned this in his posts. Say the Palestinians don't want Arafat no more, then organize a new group, force him to let you run in the election under U.N. ospices. In western states, people become members of the opposition if their against their ruling party. In Canada, I'm a member of the Canadian Alliance. I do my part against the ruling liberal party which I don't agree with.

Resistance can take two forms. And First of Two brought it up, passive and active. Some regimes can be taken down with simple mass protests and political movement. I'm sure they could get funding from the U.N. and weapons from Israel to "defend" themselves. Their is always a way.

[First of Two]

With respect to the folks out there who somehow feel that only organized militaries can be a force for change...

I feel obliged to point out that motivated individuals with weapons have altered the course of history on dozens of occasions.

They have assassinated Caesars, triggered World Wars, wiped out royal families, assassinated leaders both good and despotic for reasons both noble and vile.

What matters is whether you believe in what you are doing enough to exchange your life, if necessary, for that of the target. Most people don't.


And for those who do not speak...

G'Kar: One word, Mollari. One word was all that was required of you.
Londo: It would not have mattered. It wouldn't have changed anything. It would not have stopped.
G'Kar: You're wrong, Mollari. Whether it was me or my world, whether it was a total stranger or your worst enemy...you were a witness! It doesn't matter if they stopped! It doesn't matter if they'd listen! You had an obligation to speak out!
Londo: I couldn't!
G'Kar: That is why you don't deserve to be emperor.
Londo clutches at his heart in pain.
G'Kar: And that is why you don't deserve to live.

[StyroFoam Man]

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

[ComaBoy]

One comment:

In my opinion, a professional military does not indiscriminately fire missiles into buildings possibly containing civilians. All it proves is that Israelis who advocate such violence are better organized and equipped than the Palestinians who likewise advocate violence.

I see little moral difference.

[Capt.Hunter]

Cybrludite, read my post again - I was talking about the people who would oppose Arafat not having any weapons - do you honestly think he gives those shipments of guns to people who don't agree with him?

First of Two, again, I was talking not of armed individuals but unarmed civilians. It may be difficult for an American to believe but not everyone has the "right to bear arms". Certainly Saddam isn't going to let his people have guns. And, whilst your B5 quote is certainly appropriate, let's not fool ourselves - would we, in the same situation, do any better than Londo? Londo's certainly no coward - he fought in the military, faced down Morden and much more. In fact, in Londo's case, he wouldn't even be risking his life - just speaking out (the Centauri weren't oppressing their own people). Perhaps, if you want another B5 analogy, we should consider Jack the Ripper's speech to Sheridan and Delenn. Would we fight, even if we are all alone, in the dark, with an uncaring universe? It's easy for a moralist to say yes. But until we face that choice, we have no right at all to condemn others for choosing incorrectly.

[Capt.Hunter]

On the Hitler issue, I was merely stating that many of the reforms instituted in the early years of Hitler's rule were considered popular by the German people. There was nothing obviously sinister about improved working conditions, more jobs and a revitalised economy. What he did later, of course, was utterly inhuman.

[Dan Stack]

On the Hitler front, there is one thing to note - he told everyone what his plans were. Mein Kampf discussed his plans for Jews, France, Russia, etc. And it was a bestseller! He made no bones about his plans.

[Capt.Hunter]

Was Mein Kampf published en masse prior to his coming to power? I can't recall. Also, I strongly doubt it mentioned gassing millions of Jews, just making them less of a force in the country (and if you don't think that view could happen, take a look at general opinion about immigrant workers in Britain).

[First of Two]

. It may be difficult for an American to believe but not everyone has the "right to bear arms"

Only because you only have the rights you seize for yourself.

. Would we fight, even if we are all alone, in the dark, with an uncaring universe? It's easy for a moralist to say yes. But until we face that choice, we have no right at all to condemn others for choosing incorrectly.

I'm not saying you're incorrect in this, but it does contain an inherent assumption (although young marty's was far more egregious) that may not be entirely correct. More than that, I do not say.

add to the list of quotes:

"I know the darkness. I am its friend. And I know that it is nothing to be played with."