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Thread: Time Periods for LotR Game

  1. #16
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    If a party adventures through the whole history of Middle Earth, they're going to get pretty powerful, even if advances are limited to one a century. If you want to keep them from getting overpowered, you might tell them that some of their skills have atrophied due to lack of practice through the years. Sure, they can have sparring practice to keep themselves from getting soft and weak during peacetime, but even a regular training routine isn't going to keep a character as sharp as honest-to-Eru life-or-death combat.
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  2. #17
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  3. #18
    At the end of three Ages of the World, thirty to forty-five advancements is hardly unreasonable. As the heavy hitters we've seen in Trek top out at sixty (Kirk), I think it works out well enough in theory. I can handle heroes of significant power as the foes they attract more than compensate.
    “In our every deliberation, we must consider the impact of our decisions on the next seven generations.”

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  4. #19
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    Greg, I was just wondering which one of the sons of Feanor was going along on Beren's quest. They all swore the same oath, but they still had very distinct differences.
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  5. #20
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    Question Re: Fall of Arthedain

    Originally posted by Dan Stack
    I went through the Appendices last night, as well as my Atlas and my Fruit Punch stained copy of Rangers of the North ... I found myself overwhelmed with inspiration for a game set in the fall of Arthedain and the foundation of the Rangers of the North. A huge event in the history of Middle Earth, yet one which next to nothing is written about.
    Dan, like Sarge, I'd commit some kin-slaying to play in this chronicle. You're outline above is wonderful!

    As an aside, have you ever seen a copy of ICE's Arnor realm supplement for 2nd edition MERP? It seems like the perfect resource for the kind of game you describe. My own 4th Age chronicle began in Arnor, and I've found the book very helpful.

    Basically, Arnor is the 1st edition MERP modules Rangers of the North, Lost Realm of Cardolan, Hillmen of the Trollshaws, Bree and the Barrow Downs, and Thieves of Tharbad all rolled into one, with some new additions and revision of material. It's hefty, weighing in at over 400 pages (so it costs like $45 CDN, not sure of US cost), but if you can find a copy, I'd highly recommend it!

    Steve
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  6. #21
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    Originally posted by Sarge
    Greg, I was just wondering which one of the sons of Feanor was going along on Beren's quest. They all swore the same oath, but they still had very distinct differences.
    Well, in a move that I found quite fitting (especially since the PC's are from Doriath and one is a Noble from the court of Thingol), Celegorm and Curufin have managed to become 'friendly' with the PC's, in particular Celegorm, who sort of has a thing for Luthien. Thus, when the PC noble (who is our nominal party leader) suggested that he come along so that he might attempt to capture the remaining Simarils from Morgoth (as Beren only needs one), and then attempt to parley with Thingol for the Simaril that Beren will give him for the hand of Luthien, Celegorm was more than happy to accept.

    So, the party set out for Angband in our last long-running session and, as per the novels, lost Finrod to Sauron at Tol Sirion, though the PC's came up with a witty plan and managed to escape, so Luthien may not make an appearance until the party reaches Menegroth (unless they get captured, in which case Luthien will appear to rescue them, ala the rescue from Minas Tirith).

    Something of an oddity occured, though, as the group nearly lost Beren to some Orcs that they fought at the southern edge of Ard-Galen, as they trekked north to try and find an alternate entrance to Angband (they saw Balrogs at the main gate and thought that way was a bad one! )

    What the party doesn't know is the true motivation of Celegorm, as Celegorm has done a decent job of hiding his true plan, which is to have his brothers and some warriors lurking near Doriath, waiting for the PC's party to arrive (with, at minimum, 1 Simaril). Then, once the PC's party make it to Menegroth, they are hoping that the distracting nature of the Simaril will take Melian's attention from her Girdle around the forest, and allow the sons of Feanor a chance to slip in undetected and make their way to Menegroth, not far behind the PC's, so that if Thingol won't give up the Simaril, they can try and take it by force.

    Obviously, it's a plan that doesn't fully mesh with the canon of Tolkien, but I think it'll make for a fun conclusion to the adventure, with the PC's possibly having a chance for some payback with Celegorm, who has been playing them from the moment he met them (asking seemingly simple questions about Doriath, Menegroth, the Girdle, and Luthien). Of course, I won't know for certain until after the holidays, as my group has headed home for Christmas and New Years, which in a way is good, as I still have a whole bunch of NPC's to stat out (I only have Beren and Celegorm done thus far).

    So, Sarge, in a long, roundabout sort of way, there's your answer...Celegorm!



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  7. #22
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    Celegorm... hmmm...

    Interesting... Celegorm was certainly part of the Tale of Beren and Luthien, and you really don't seem to be changing his motivations and goals. So far, I'd say you've been about as true to the story as Peter Jackson.
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  8. #23
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    Re: Celegorm... hmmm...

    Originally posted by Sarge
    So far, I'd say you've been about as true to the story as Peter Jackson.
    Wow, Sarge...I just don't exactly know how to take that!



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  9. #24
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    Thanks for the words of encouragement with the Fall of Arthedain game.

    I have managed to secure the Arnor and Angmar supplements from the old MERP game. Though they are nominally set in 1640 and I disagree with some of ICE's decisions, I'll probably be using them for inspiration, maps, etc.

    I'm still mulling over ideas for a late Third Age or early Fourth Age game, but I'm finding it difficult to think of a way to make the PCs as important as they would be during the Fall of Arthedain. Indeed, my thought process has also made me consider changes to make to my Star Wars game when we get around to playing that again, to make that game a bit more epic as well.

    There are a few pitfalls I'm considering. The first of which is the danger of railroading. Setting a game in this period means certain events are simply going to happen. I need to be careful not to spend much time setting adventures like that - the Fall of Fornost is an example - when it happens, it should happen with alarming swiftness. Such an adventure should not center on what the characters cannot do (save Fornost for example) but rather what they can - for example, securing the escape of the Prince and/or the King. But I know I will be asking for trouble if I spend too much time centering adventures whose outcome is preordained.

    This is why I'm still open to inspiration for a late 3rd or 4th Age game, should inspiration come to me. The key is making the characters the heroes of an epic. Late Third Age feels a little congested for epics. The Fourth Age is giving me trouble because it seems too hopeful - I like the feel of desperation an Arthedain Game gives. (Of course, I could open a Fourth Age game with the destruction of Minas Tirith - that might make the stakes feel high... )
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  10. #25
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    Great reading here, folks, keep it going.

    While reading the books, I've been mulling on chronicle ideas, and nothing concrete's come out. I'm hitting similar issue y'all are.

    I originally thought a Fourth Age game might be fun, picking up where things left off, but I'm getting the feeling that the Fourth Age isn't as magical or as evocative as the first three.

    I thought about a Second Age game too, since there doesn't appear to be a lot written about it, and I've thought about an early Third Age game.

    Too many ideas swimming in my head. I'll keep an eye on this thread for more ideas.

  11. #26
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    I think the key to setting your game in a "historical" setting (regardless of what universe this is the history of) is deciding how much of that history is in the control of your characters, and how much of it is not. If you put most events in the control of your characters, the "history" will end up radically different. Conversely, if you put very few events into their control, the lack of Free Will becomes readily apparent to your players and they'll quickly lose interest.

    Having done "historical" games a few times in the past, I've found one thing that helps is to mark out those few events which are "historically inevitable." Then, instead of thinking of this as a limitation of what the characters can do, try to make it their goal.

    Let's take some examples from The Lord of the Rings itself, assuming that the characters in the story are characters in your game. One event that is inevitable is the assault of Mordor upon Gondor; everyone knows that's coming, sooner or later. Nothing that the Fellowship can do will alter that. They can, however, affect the timing of that assault, and to a certain extent the outcome of the assault. Aragorn reveals himself in the Palantir, prompting Sauron to strike immediately, rather than waiting until everything is ready. He then takes off and manages to bring reenforcements to the battle in the nick of time, managing to win the day for the Good Guys.

    Or look a Pippin, for example. He does absolutely nothing to affect the outcome of the Battle of the Pellanor Fields. However, without Pippin, Faramir would have died, leaving Minas Tirith leaderless, and Eowyn to a rather unhappy end. The death or survival of Faramir could hardly change the outcome of the War of the Ring, but I challenge anyone to say that it doesn't make a difference.

    Once upon a time, I ran a Star Wars campaign (back in the days of the West End Games 2nd Edition) which intersected with the movies in a major way; the characters, originally a bunch of freelancers drifting from system to system as fortune dictated, joined up with the Rebels right before the Battle of Endor. Do I just skip over this major event in the Star Wars universe and pick up after the Death Star explodes? Of course not, they'd have lynched me for copping out and denying them a piece of the action. Somehow I have to insert them in the action, make them feel like they are making a difference, but keep the course of events unaltered.

    What I ended up doing was inserting them in the commando team that assaulted the shield bunker; they just didn't have the star-piloting chops to make the space battle worthwhile, and the ground battle was a much more personal affair. So while the "heroes" of Return of the Jedi were off visiting the Ewoks, the heroes of the game were helping lead the commando team to the shield bunker, avoiding both Ewok traps and Imperial patrols. Thus they got to do their bit by ensuring the commandoes made it to the bunker intact, without alerting the Stormtroopers. None of the final outcomes were changed, but the players had a leading hand in ensuring they remained unchanged.

    Now let's look at that Fall of Arthedain idea Dan's working on currently for an example; it actually happens to be one of the "historical" games I ran once upon a time, though it was broken up before we got halfway through the rising action.

    The ultimate inevitable occurrance is that, in 1974 of the Third Age, the forces of Angmar descend on Arthedain, sack Fornost, and put an end to the North Kingdom. This is a given, since it's also the main plot of your Campaign. The Witch King and his armies are too great a force for your players to hope to halt. There is also a relief force from Gondor which arrives, too late to save the North Kingdom but soon enough to destroy the Realm of Angmar, leading to Eärnur's fateful meeting with the Witch King and the prophecy of his demise. There is also the escape of Arvedui to the Lossoth and then his loss at sea when the rescue ship founders. This is a rough framework of the essential "historical elements" of the story.

    So if you decide that these events are unalterable, what does this leave for the players to do? Plenty, actually, and they could be tied very closely into the action of these unalterable events. Arthedain knew a full year before the fact that the Witch King was preparing a final stroke. Who spied out the secret preparations? Messages had to be sent to Gondor to summon aid. Who delivered them, if it was not done by Palantir? Did the Dunedain of the North launch spoiling attacks against Angmar, in order to delay the inevitable onslaught and give Gondor as much time as possible to come to their aid? When Fornost fell and the survivors were driven across the Lune, who ensured the survival of the King's Sons? There is plenty of room for your players to take significant parts in these events and feel satisfied that they have made a difference, without changing the ultimate outcome in the least.

    I guess what it all boils down to is this: if you're not going to let the players alter the ultimate outcome, make them focus on shaping it in some fashion. Give them vital roles, outside of what is specifically detailed, in ensuring that these historical events occur. It does work, trust me on this.

    -Chris Landmark
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  12. #27
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    That has to be one of the most well written and thought provoking "GM advice" posts I've read in a long time.

    Solid, solid advice, Chris.

    If I had the pleasure of playing in one of your games and one of Dan's, I'd be in Middle-earth gaming heaven.

    Steve
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  13. #28
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    Bravo Chris.

    Bravo.


  14. #29
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    As a crude comparision. The histroical vs 4th Age game is a little like Fourth season Babylon 5 to fifth season. Everything looks like it's done with the forces of good, perhaps including the PC's, triumphant. Then it's cleaning up the mess and 'building' the new world - a challenge in it's self.

    What results is definatly a more 'low key' story - like the one mentioned above that Tolkien was writing. However, in a way I think this holds it's own rewards and can lead to a campgian that is more 'clever' (in some ways) - good is usually tripped up in some way, and there is definatly some good RPG experiences of anf arthurian style 'everything going wrong from the high point and there is nothing you can do' - though that is obviously a bit depressing.

    Other similar ideas I'd point to were post War of the Lance Dragonlance as the forces of good start squabling and let evil in throught the 'back door' - certain inter World World War comparisions spring to mind here also. Another was a planned post 'Wheel of time' by robert Jordan story I've planned - it becomes much harder to trip up good, but possible.

    In some ways, this campgian is the usual 'fantasy' style in reverse - Good usually starts off scattered and Evil strong.

    Also, and this just occures to me, certain real world comparisions with asymetic powers can be made - America's current position (Without insulting Americans or defining America as 'good')

    Of course, at this point this really isn't 'middle earth' so much any more. But it might be what you want.

    Later days!

    Mark
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  15. #30
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    Historical vs. "New"

    Chris, thanks for your comments. They were eloquently put and are quite useful. I've printed off this whole thread and found a place for it in my new LOTR RPG binder.

    Now, your advice on running a historical campaign makes plenty of sense. The roadblock staring me in the face, however, is that I've read the Lord of the Rings all of once, finished flipping through the appendices this evening, and will be starting the Hobbit later tonight. I don't know much about ME beyond what I've read in the books and the core RPG book (with the caveat that I simply haven't been able to absorb everything in the books yet).

    As a result, I just don't feel confident about running a historical chronicle without putting the PCs in the shoes of the Fellowship and seeing how they fare against the foes of LOTR.

    I feel like a Fourth Age chronicle would be "safer" at least until I'm sufficiently conversant with ME to be able to thread a chronicle through the established ME history.

    With that in mind, what's everyone's specific experiences with running Fourth Age adventures and campaigns? What are some of the pros, cons, lessons learned, cool bits, things to avoid, etc.? Maybe this needs to be a thread of its own? I don't know.

    The story in my mind, in gestational stages, is setting the chronicle in the early Fourth Age, as King Elessar is trying to get Gondor on stable ground following the fall of Sauron, when an unspecified Evil from the East rears its ugly head and threatens the fragile stability of his new kingdom.

    Hell, I reread that and see how vague it is. Gotta work more on it.

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