LoTR 4th Age Questions

[Chris Landmark]

Originally posted by AslanC
So in the Silmarillion there is a mother of the spiders who eats the simarils? This is what I have been told, but I know nothing more than that.

Can anyone help? Tell me more?

Ungoliant was the "creature in spider-form" you are asking about. She helped Melkor sneak back into Valinor, and she poisoned the two Trees and devoured their light while Melkor stole the Silmarils. When they made their getaway, Ungoliant was still hungry and demanded the Silmarils as well. Melkor said no, and was only saved from Ungoliant (grown immesurably from comsuming the trees) by the timely intervention of his Balrogs. No more of Ungoliant is known, but there certainly have been lots of giant spiders weaving webs of darkness in later years...

And the orcs were made by torturing elves? Can some one elaborate?

Not so much torturing as courupting. Two of Tolkien's big themes are: "Evil cannot make, it can only mock," and "Nothing is evil in its origin."

What Melkor (a.k.a. Morgoth) wanted was power and dominion, and the ultimate power and dominion (the provence of Eru Iluvitar himself and no other) was the creation of life, which he could never achieve. So to actually create servants who weren't mere constructs, he had to have actual life to start with. The first sentient life available to him was Elves, some of whom he captured and courupted and debased and twisted, and eventually he had Orcs. Tolkien also eventually decided that Men (who were much easier than Elves to debase and courupt) were mixed in there as well, probably because he wasn't too keen on the thought of immortal Orcs and he was sure that Morgoth wasn't powerful enough to alter Elven nature that fundamentally.

The trolls were made in mockery of the Ents, but it its doubtful that they were made from Ents. We're not sure what their origin is, but the fact that trolls turn to stone in the sun might suggest that they are some sort of construct of Morgoth's given animation, but not true life, through application of his power (this is pure idle speculation however).

As for Dragons (yet another of Morgoth's gifts to the world) I have no idea how he pulled them off.

There's a general gist of things. Don't worry too much about confusion and contradiction, because Tolkien himself never established these things entirely to his satisfaction, and was constantly coming back to it and trying to work out the kinks.

-Chris Landmark

[AslanC]

Wow Chris thanks a lot that was very enlightening

I can't ask a lot of these questions the player I have who is the encyc, cause it will ruin the surprise for him.

One last question.

What is the final fate of the Silmarils?

I understand one is the morning star and the other two we lost, one cast into the sea and the other into a fiery chasm?

Also did they have any specific powers?

[Chris Landmark]

Originally posted by AslanC
One last question.

What is the final fate of the Silmarils?

I understand one is the morning star and the other two we lost, one cast into the sea and the other into a fiery chasm?

You are correct. The slightly more expanded version: Morgoth had the three Silmarils placed in his iron crown. Beren and Luthien snuck into Angband where Luthien sang everyone to sleep and Beren cut one of the Silmarils out (he was going to go for a second but his knife broke and Morgoth started waking up and they decided to leg it). Thingol received the Silmaril as the bride price for Luthien's hand. He had some dwarves set it into a necklace.

The dwarves decided that the necklace itself was fitting payment for their work, and in the ensuing argument Thingol was killed and Menegroth (his palace/city) was sacked. Beren and Luthien ambushed the dwarves on their way back to the Blue Mountains and got back the Silmaril. It passed to their son Dior, who rebuilt Menegroth but was attacked by the sons of Fëanor who had sworn an oath that none should stand between them and the recovery of the Silmarils. Menegroth was sacked again and Dior was slain, but his daughter Elwing (who married Ëarendil the mariner) escaped with the Silmaril.

It was Ëarendil who sailed back to the Blessed Realm and petitioned the Valar to come to the aid of Elves and Men and overthrow Morgoth, with the Silmaril bound to his brow. The Valar agreed, and Ëarendil's ship was set to sail the heavens evermore as the morning star.

The Host of Valinor landed in Middle Earth, defeated the forces of Angband, liberated the Silmarils, and cast Morgoth into the Outer Darkness. The two surviving sons of Fëanor, Maedhros and Maglor, not really wanting to but still bound to their oaths, snuck into the camp, slew the guards, and took the Silmarils.

But the Silmarils burned them with unbearable pain, for the deeds of the sons of Fëanor in persuit of their oath had voided their right to the jewels. Maedhros in his torment cast himself into a firey chasm, taking the Silmaril with him. Maglor threw his into the sea and wandered the shores endlessly, singing a lament of pain and regret.

Also did they have any specific powers?

Not really. But captured within them was captured the light of the Two Trees of Valinor, and they were the only way to replace them after Ungoliant did her work. The Sun and Moon, which provided light to the later world, were merely shadows of the beauty of the Two Trees.

In other words... they were very shiny.

-Chris Landmark

[AslanC]

Thanks Chris! that is some great information

So I guess it wouldn't be out of the question to say that someone in possession of one of the Silmarils could use it to drain the sun of it's light, leaving only the moon and eternal night across the face of Middle Earth?

Another question for anyone...

The Knights of Dol Amroth? What can anyone tell me?

Here's what I could find...

"But beyond, in the great fief of Belfalas dwealt Prince Imrahil in his Castle of Dol Amroth by the sea, and he was of high blood, and his folk also, tall men and proud, with sea-grey eyes!"

and. . .

"and last and proudest, Imrahil, of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the Lord, bearing guilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and Silver Swan, and a company of Knights in full harness, riding grey horses: and behind them seven hundreds of men-at-arms, tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came!"

Actual information would be nice. Are they actual Paladinish/Cavalierish Knights? Etc. . .

[Ineti]

Keep it coming folks. This is another great LOTR thread. I hope the LOTR forums open up to the general public soon...

I'm 30 pages from finishing The Hobbit, then I'm off to either Unfinished Tales or The Silmarillion. Can't wait!

[Phantom]

Originally posted by AslanC
Thanks Chris! that is some great information

So I guess it wouldn't be out of the question to say that someone in possession of one of the Silmarils could use it to drain the sun of it's light, leaving only the moon and eternal night across the face of Middle Earth?

Another question for anyone...

The Knights of Dol Amroth? What can anyone tell me?

Here's what I could find...

"But beyond, in the great fief of Belfalas dwealt Prince Imrahil in his Castle of Dol Amroth by the sea, and he was of high blood, and his folk also, tall men and proud, with sea-grey eyes!"

and. . .

"and last and proudest, Imrahil, of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the Lord, bearing guilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and Silver Swan, and a company of Knights in full harness, riding grey horses: and behind them seven hundreds of men-at-arms, tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came!"

Actual information would be nice. Are they actual Paladinish/Cavalierish Knights? Etc. . .

Other then what you have listed above, and their appearance in the Books at the Battle Of Pellanor you pretty much have what I can find. Imrahil is a mixed Dunedian and Elvish blood. Dol Amroth was founded by Amroth, a king of Lorien, who ruled from SA 3434 to SA 1981.

[AslanC]

Originally posted by Phantom
Other then what you have listed above, and their appearance in the Books at the Battle Of Pellanor you pretty much have what I can find. Imrahil is a mixed Dunedian and Elvish blood. Dol Amroth was founded by Amroth, a king of Lorien, who ruled from SA 3434 to SA 1981.

Yeah I can't find anything more either, other than a fan MUD and I don't trust that too too much.

I guess they are almost free to be developed. I love the fact that they have Noldor blood in their past so they are impressive men. I would assume a mix of Elf and Numenorian.

[AslanC]

Here's the breakdown of my PCs thus far. . .

Robin - Will be playing a member of the Knights of Dol Amroth. As a teen he was a friend to the son of the King of Rohan, so he is a friend of Rohan. He was also taught how to ride by them.

Anik - At this point she is leaning towards a Dunedan ranger. Not sold on this totally, but anything is possible.

Anthony - Wants to play a Ranger of Gondor (like Faramir was). This guy knows more about Middle Earth than I do, so we will talk it out tomorrow.

Mike - A Captain from Arnor. Some Dunedan blood, but also mixed with Beoring.

Tieu Thuy - A red haired Silvan elf, from the Greenleaves. She also has the distinction of being the last elf born in Middle Earth.

And if April gets back and we are not done (I hope to make a real epic out of this) I will have her play a High Elf, sent back from Elfhome to assure either the recapture of destruction of the Silmaril.

Shall I post the basic outline of the campaign?

[Phantom]

Originally posted by AslanC

Shall I post the basic outline of the campaign?

Gee, let me think...YES!

[AslanC]

Originally posted by AslanC
Mike - A Captain from Arnor. Some Dunedan blood, but also mixed with Beoring.

See here is where my knowledge breaks down. I figured Beornings were just like locals. I should have said Middle Men. I will learn, I will learn.

Who knows elvish or at least is good with it?

I need help since I am trying to piece together bits and pieces from the back of the Silmarillion and it is a headache to say the least.

I need to say Lastborn or some such for my elf player, whose first name may be Andunae (bastardization of Sunset due to her red hair).

[Phantom]

Originally posted by AslanC

I need to say Lastborn or some such for my elf player, whose first name may be Andunae (bastardization of Sunset due to her red hair).

Linguistics isn't my strong point, but from what I can gather from a site I found, on Tolkiens Elvish, Yanesse is a close approx to 'Lastborn.' If someone else knows better I would like to know as well. I found the term Estanesse=(lit) First Youth, and Ya=(var) Last. So, Yanesse should=Last Youth...I think.

[AslanC]

Originally posted by Phantom
Gee, let me think...YES!

Ask and yea shall receive

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
The New Shadow

It is the early part of the 4th Age (around 320 or so), long since the death of King Elessar. The Kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor thrive and do well. The lost lands have been retaken and the strength of the crown is beyond doubt. The Dwarves have retaken Moria and peace rules the lands.

But there is an ancient darkness growing under the lands. Something old and powerful. Something unheard of for ages now. If left unchecked its power and plans will plunge the whole of Middle-Earth into darkness.

As always it starts with a simple thing. 3 years ago, while fishing just off the shores of the Westmarch, Cyril Toukberry captured a large golden fish. Nearly as big as his boat, he had no hope of eating it all himself. He decided to cook it up as part of a feast for the whole of his village, Downbywater.

when he gutted the fish back on shore he found the strangest thing in it. A large pearl. It seemed quite large, bigger than his fist to be sure. And when the light of the sun hit it, it slowed a soft glow. Cyril mounted the pearl on the mantle in his home and went about his life.

Leap ahead 3 years. In Gondor and surrounding area, the Orcs have been on the move. Heading out of the mountains and into the lands of man, with little regard for their safety. The strange part is that they are not returning to the mountains, but instead continuing on. Small packs at first. Some head north to Angmar and others still head east towards Mordor. The packs have been getting more frequent, larger and bolder with the spring.

Good King Darion has called for all good people who are plagued by this to send a representative to Minas Tirith, so that he may determine a course of action.

Has evil in Mordor reawakened? Pehaps in Angmar? Or both? Why do the orcs only raid as they go and never stop moving forward? These are questions that the King wants answered. Arriving to the call are a Captain of Arnor, a Knight of Dol Amroth, a Ranger of Gondor and one of Eriador, a Dwarf from the Blue Mountains, an Elf from Greenleaves and a mysterious Magician named Belengol.

Together these heroes will set out to find the answers and learn that there is more afoot than meets the eye. With time against them their actions alone will determine the fate of Middle-Earth.

=-=-=-

[AslanC]

Okay here is what is going on behind the scenes.

Back when Morgoth and Ungoliant had their little misadventure with the Silmarils, Ungoliant went below ground with a number of elves she had captured and corrupted by stealing the light from them.

For millennia these shadowed elves have toiled beneath the surface of Middle-Earth, ruled by their Spider-Queen Loth (who is the daughter of Ungoliant. I figured she rose up, killed and ate her mother like all good spiders should).

I may use the underground city of Menzoberranzan (hell I have the boxed set and never used it before) but I am not sure.

Anywho, the pearl found in Downbywater is in fact the lost silmaril. It has dimmed over the years, but the more it lives the more it glows. The last of the elves at Rivendell had detected the power, but in true elvish way, they were taking their darn good time about doing something about it.

Beneath the ground Loth's seers detected the silmaril as well. She sent out Drow warriors and scouts to learn what they could.

They started with the Orcs, capturing them and torturing them for information. This has sent the orcs into a panic and they are making from the Misty Mountains for the only two places they know. Mordor and Angmar. The orcs as it stands are red herrings.

I assuming that none of the Uruk-Hai survived the War of the Ring (if I am wrong, please tell me) so i am only using Orcs.

having learned about Rivendell, a scout force of Drow have made their way there and manage to kill everyone there and learn of the location of the Silmaril.

The players, thinking that perhaps somehow Sauron has revived will be encouraged (by Belengol if need be) to head to Rivendel for guidance.

A fight with some Orcs on the way and then they arrive to find the sons of Elrond and everyone else dead. Strange black fletched arrows that have heads made of a black metal that glimmers like some kind of dark mithril in the moonlight but looks burned and black in firelight (or sunlight). Of course there is one last elf, hanging on by a thread who will point them in the right direction and off they go.

The clock is counting down.

Of course the Drow, who have the head start, will get to Downbywater first (by hours at best) and grab the Silmaril, stuff it in a sack (along with the Hobbit, hey you never know he might be important) and head for the Misty Mountains.

The players will catch up with them at Weather Top and have a quick battle. There they will learn that their enemies are some kind of black elf.

Of course the silmaril will slip out of their grasp and be carried up into the mountains. (Where is the Golbin Pass? Or Hall or somesuch?) and then into the mountains and down into the underworld.

Why does Loth want the silmaril? Simple. With it she can suck the light out of the sun and plunge all of Middle-Earth into darkness. Allowing the underworld creatures to rules the lands.

Well that's all I have right now.

Opinions? Comments? Thoughts?

As I am not Tolkien expert and input is greatly appreciated.

[Calcoran]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned this, but there <I>are</I> drow elves in Tolkien's world. Superior and twisted craftsmen who made swords from a dark metal fallen from the sun (could Turin's sword be one of them, can't recall). The son of one of these Drow Elves is actually the reason for the fall of Gondollin if I'm not mixing things up completely.
Well, take it for what it's worth ...

Oh, about the Silmaril being used to suck the light out of the sun ... as far as I get it (I only read the Silmarillion twice, and it was a long time ago), the light in the Silmarils is by far superior (maybe not in strength, but in beauty) to the light of the sun or the moon. The Silmaril shows the light of both Trees at their brightest. When Ungollian sucked both Trees dry, one of the Valars sung to try and heal the trees, and as a result, each Tree bore one last fruit. Those fruits were taken by two Maia who took to carry them over the world and bring back some light. But the light of both fruits is but a mere shadow of what the Trees were (for one, the Trees didn't need to be carried to middle earth for light to exist there). So I find it somewhat unlikely that a Silmarillon could be used to suck the light out of the sun.

Anyhow, the Maia (female) carrying the sun is, as should be, fiery and inflexible. The Moon (male) now is much more erratic, sometimes attracted to the sun, sometimes fooled by the dark powers (AFAIR) ... and could easily be lured by the light of a Silmaril and captured or even killed. You might say that the sun is much more important than the Moon ... somehow, I got the impression that the Moon was extremely important in Tolkien's world. Many things are bound to it. I even seem to recall reading somewhere that without the moon to light the darkness, the children of Eru were most frightened by the night. Anyhow, if you really need the Sun to be darkened, the Maia bearing the Sun could decide to go and save the Moon, where a trap would be set to kill her.

Just some random thoughts to bring more Tolkien to your chronicles, feel free to ignore all of this .

[Calcoran]

About the "drow" elves. Found the name back: The elven lord was called Eol, and his son Maeglin. They were both killed, but the Silmarillon does not seem to indicate that they were one of a kind. My understanding is that there was a House of Eol, and since they are said to live in extremely dark and shadowy forests, they could have easily been attracted to the shadow of Ungoliant.
Oh, and Turin's sword, made from the black metal that fell from heaven, was indeed Eol's craft. It was named Anglachel (Iron Flame), and later Gurthang (Iron of Death). It was not your friendly neighbourhood type of sword like Sting or Glamring. Think more Stormbringer or the like : sentient and malevolent.