LoTR 4th Age Questions

[calguard66]

Originally posted by AslanC

I assuming that none of the Uruk-Hai survived the War of the Ring (if I am wrong, please tell me) so i am only using Orcs.

I would expect that some Urukai-Hai survive. In the movies they were created from mud, but in the book they are actually half-orcs, bred in breeding pits beneath Orthanc from orcs and enslaved humans. They are more intelligent and more suited to civiliazation than regular Orcs... you could have them form an orc "aristocracy".

having learned about Rivendell, a scout force of Drow have made their way there and manage to kill everyone there and learn of the location of the Silmaril.

The players, thinking that perhaps somehow Sauron has revived will be encouraged (by Belengol if need be) to head to Rivendel for guidance.

A fight with some Orcs on the way and then they arrive to find the sons of Elrond and everyone else dead. Strange black fletched arrows that have heads made of a black metal that glimmers like some kind of dark mithril in the moonlight but looks burned and black in firelight (or sunlight). Of course there is one last elf, hanging on by a thread who will point them in the right direction and off they go.

I'd be wary of killing off Rivendel. Perhaps they save an elven expidition sent to investigate, and are taken back to Rivendel and filled in there?

Opinions? Comments? Thoughts?

As I am not Tolkien expert and input is greatly appreciated.

With the exception of the nits picked above, quite excellent. Can I play?

Oh, one other thing... I don't think 320 years is long enough for Aragorn to be dead. Perhaps he is an invalid, and they are sent on their quest by Arwen... still young in appearance, but with aged, haunted eyes as she sees her father's vision of her future with Aragorn coming true?

Perhaps, if you really wanted to be evil, the PCs could discover that Arwen was tempted by Loth, who offered eternal youth to Arwen's beloved in return for the Simaril, unaware of the spider queen's true intentions? Her selection of noble-born but inexperienced questers and her emphasis on the orcs was meant to sooth fears at court and divert attention from the true danger until it was too late.

[calguard66]

Perhaps the Simarillion can be used to magically "surge" the fruit carried as the Sun and Moon, burning them out and destroying them that way. Do sun and moon fruit have circuit breakers?

Originally posted by Calcoran

Oh, about the Silmaril being used to suck the light out of the sun ... as far as I get it (I only read the Silmarillion twice, and it was a long time ago), the light in the Silmarils is by far superior (maybe not in strength, but in beauty) to the light of the sun or the moon. The Silmaril shows the light of both Trees at their brightest. When Ungollian sucked both Trees dry, one of the Valars sung to try and heal the trees, and as a result, each Tree bore one last fruit. Those fruits were taken by two Maia who took to carry them over the world and bring back some light. But the light of both fruits is but a mere shadow of what the Trees were (for one, the Trees didn't need to be carried to middle earth for light to exist there). So I find it somewhat unlikely that a Silmarillon could be used to suck the light out of the sun.

[Pelagius]

Instead of using term Drow, why not just Morquendi?

[calguard66]

I agree... I'd stay away from Drow, or even Lolth.

Make their culture different, perhaps their attitudes.

Middle-Earth isn't D&D... but there is no harm in using some ideas as long as you make it feel distinctly Middle-Earth.

Originally posted by Pelagius
Instead of using term Drow, why not just Morquendi?

[Chris Landmark]

Originally posted by AslanC
So I guess it wouldn't be out of the question to say that someone in possession of one of the Silmarils could use it to drain the sun of it's light, leaving only the moon and eternal night across the face of Middle Earth?

Well, I personally don't buy that, as Morgoth most likely would have done so long ago if it were possible. But that doesn't mean that your villain doesn't believe it's possible, and your heroes as well.

I seem to recall something about the Silmarils all remaining in their respective "homes" (Sea, Earth, and Air) until the end of the world when all that was Marred shall be set aright, so if your villain actually does recover one of them (the one from the sea being easiest, I'd think), be sure to put it back where it came from when you're done, like say having Maglor show up again and chuck it in the ocean (or borrow the character I made up as plot hook and deus ex machina in a Merp game once, Anaglîr, the son of Maglor, who was trying to make up for the sins of the previous generation of Fëanorians. And no, he was not Über like that horrible example from the Decipher boards I posted yesterday...).

Having read your campaign summary, I'd like to encourage you to NOT use such words as Drow, Loth, and anything else attached to the Underdark. Steal the ideas (making enough changes so that it's not simply Drow in Middle Earth, of course), fine, but craft new words.

Eol and his son Maeglin were called Dark Elves, but that term (Moriquendi) applies to all the elves who never crossed over to Aman and saw the light of the Two Trees, and included all the Sindar (of which Eol and Maeglin were part)and Silvan elves who abandoned the journey West at various points, and the Avari who never even began the journey. (Conversely, the Calaquendi, or Light Elves, were those who did make it to Aman, and included the Vanyar, the Noldor, and the Teleri.) Eol was a great smith and crafted two blades out of, basically, meteoric iron, and both were pretty much cursed; one Turin bore and used to slay Glaurung, but two of its wielders died on its blade (Beleg and Turin) and the realm of Nargothrond was destroyed. Maeglin took the other when he and his mother (sister of Turgon, king of Gondolin) fled there from his father (who came to a bad end when he followed after and killed his wife in front of Turgon), but he betrayed the hidden kingdom to Morgoth and came to a bad end himself. I mention this because those arrows tipped with a strange black metal sound suspicious. Perhaps Eol had another son...

For your "evil elves" I'd suggest you use Avari, as they would be the "least noble" of the Elves (power and "nobility" increase the closer to Aman you get; part of the longevity and dignity of the Numenorians came from the fact that Numenor lay within sight of Aman, and the Dunedain diminished once they lost that land).

For your evil spider queen, I'd definitely incorporate the stem "Mor" (as in Morgoth and Mordor, meaning dark or black) into the name, along with a spider-element of some sort (Morlob perhaps?). Don't make her too powerful; model her on Shelob.

Better yet, perhaps it IS Shelob; Tolkien call her the "last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world" or somesuch, and didn't know what happened to her after her battle with Sam. That might be a great way to tie things in to the ancient history of the War of the Ring and tie up a loose end that the professor left for you.

If you need help creating new elvish names, try Ardalambion, or the etimologies found in The Lost Road (History of Middle Earth v. 5).

I'm not sure whether or not Celeborn and the sons of Elrond would still be around in Middle Earth this far into the future. I suspect they took to the havens not long after Arwen died (which, elvishly speaking, could be as much as a century). Still, there would be a few loremasters lingering in Rivindell for you to kill off.

The Knights of Dol Amroth? What can anyone tell me?

Actual information would be nice. Are they actual Paladinish/Cavalierish Knights? Etc. . .

As has been mentioned, there's not a lot about them in the books. However, I think we can safely infer a few things. Tolkien seems to use knight to refer to any heavy cavalry in personal service of a lord; the members of Theoden's personal éored are refered to in this fashion as well. So most likely a Knight of Dol Amroth was in personal service to the Prince, and possibly nobility him/herself. And while many of the costal provinces of Gondor were peopled entirely by Middle Men or those of mixed blood, the people of Dol Amroth were for the most part of pure Dunedain blood (and the ruling house likely had some Elvish blood mixed in, of Sindarin or Silvan stock, from when the elves of Lorien departed from havens in that region), which would make them more noble of mien than most.

They wouldn't be Paladins per se (since there's no organized religion other than the Dark Cults of Morgoth worship), but with the stern, heroic strain that seems to characterize the Dunedain, the same sort of image would apply.

Right, there you go, some information and inspirational stuff from me. Hope it whets your imagination.

-Chris Landmark

[AslanC]

Well I learned the hard way that JAVA and OmniWeb don't like each other too much. tried to create a list and could close it. Oh well, back to typing

=-=-=-=-

Let me say stright up that I really really appreciate all the info guys, it is most helpful. So I will reply in kind by tackling each issue as I see it.

Drow, Loth and the Underdark - Agreed. I do not want to just transplant them directly. It needs that Middle-Earth flavour. That said I think I have a name for them.

Quenuhuine - Elves of Under-Shadow

The word is based on the two following (thanks for that link Chris)

Unuhuinë – Under-shadow
Quendë – Elves

As for Loth I think Morlob is an excellent idea Thanks for pointing me that way.

Rivendell and the sons of Elrond - By this point in the 4th Age Elrond, Celeborn and Galadriel are all gone. Elrond's sons remain behind, but I can't find any record of how long they stay. So I can easily slaughter a bunch of Elves and Loremasters at Rivendell. It will also serve to drive home the seriousness of the problem. these fell creatures managed to raid and sack Rivendell, they are a serious threat.

Aragorn, Elessar and age - According to the RPG e lives to be 210. If my game is set in 320 4th Age, then he has been dead for about 100 years. Not a problem there

Silmarils and their powers - I don't want to turn this into a lesson on the creation myths of Middle-Earth. I want this to be a quest my players can understand and get into. Stop the evil spider-queen from turning off the sun. They get that. It is palpable. I love the idea of the silmaril having to be returned to the sea. I think also they will be able to use its' light to kill Morlob and free to souls of the corrupt Quenuhuine. Not too sure about a big NPC they have never heard of. Maybe his spirit can give them some guidance all Obi-Wan like, but in the end the players MUST do it on their own.

Uruk-Hai and Orcs - I think by now the Uruk-hai will have bred into the Orcs, so lets just call them Orcs

Elvish name for Lastborn - Well I did somemore checking and here is what I have found...

Ónar: Born

telda: "last, final"

tele: "finish, end" (intransitive), also "be the last thing or person in a series or sequence of events"

Teleri: those at the end of the line, the hindmost"

tel: "finish, end, be last" (SA:tel-)

Telya: finish, wind up, conclude

So I am thinking Telonar. So her name would be. . . Andunae Telonar or Andunae Lastborn.

I like Andunae (Sunset or west) because it too symbolizes the end of the elves and their journey into the west.

In the end though it looks like she will be an NPC.

Tieu Thuy really wants to play a Hobbit, so she will play a Minstrel in the service of Gondor.

Anik does not want to play an elf, but we don't need another Ranger, so she is giving it thought.

=-=-=-=-=-=

Whew. The second time there were less typos and I was able to streamline my thoughts more.

Questions? Comments?

[calguard66]

I like your train of thought.

As for whether the Simarils could put out the sun and moon or not, maybe everybody only THINKS they can... it doesn't really matter if it will work or not, as long as everybody thinks it will.

I'm really attached to my "desolate Arwen" idea... maybe I'll use that in my own game.

Originally posted by AslanC


Questions? Comments?

[AslanC]

Originally posted by calguard66
I like your train of thought.

I appreciate the compliment sir

Originally posted by calguard66
As for whether the Simarils could put out the sun and moon or not, maybe everybody only THINKS they can... it doesn't really matter if it will work or not, as long as everybody thinks it will.

Exactly, and if I happen to blacken the sky like in ROTK, well so much the better.

Also I look forward to the moment where Morlob (or her chief agent) tries to pull the light out of Andunae. Should scare the players but good.

Originally posted by calguard66
I'm really attached to my "desolate Arwen" idea... maybe I'll use that in my own game.

I would love to hear more about your game as well, it might give me some inspiration.

I'm thinking I may want to slow down the timetable in mine.

Perhaps have the Orcs be the problem and then bait and switch them with the Quenuhuine later.

I dunno. I think I need to work out a timeline of events.

I could see the Quenuhuine using the Orcs as slaves, even in battle in Middle-Earth, trying to keep their identity as secret as possible.

Hmmmm. . . Many, many thoughts to be had.

I will post more on the morrow, but for now, I just spent the night making the characters and am a bit light headed and silly

[Chris Landmark]

Originally posted by AslanC
Drow, Loth and the Underdark - Agreed. I do not want to just transplant them directly. It needs that Middle-Earth flavour. That said I think I have a name for them.

Quenuhuine - Elves of Under-Shadow

As for Loth I think Morlob is an excellent idea Thanks for pointing me that way.

You're welcome.

Your name sounds pretty good. Go with it.

Rivendell and the sons of Elrond - By this point in the 4th Age Elrond, Celeborn and Galadriel are all gone. Elrond's sons remain behind, but I can't find any record of how long they stay. So I can easily slaughter a bunch of Elves and Loremasters at Rivendell. It will also serve to drive home the seriousness of the problem. these fell creatures managed to raid and sack Rivendell, they are a serious threat.

Rivendell is pretty much emptied of all its people with the departure of Elrond. His sons and some folk remained durring the begining of the Fourth Age, and Celeborn joined them for a while. We honestly know nothing about the history of Middle Earth after about the year 120 of the Fourth Age, when the last ammendation to the Thain's Book (Tolkien's "source" for Lord of the Rings), detailing the death of king Elessar and the fate of Arwen. My speculation that the Celeborn and the sons of Elrond sought the havens not long afterwards is merely that: speculation, but it seems to make sense that there is no longer any reason for them to linger. Of course, the choice of the half-elven was given to all Elrond's children, either to depart with him or remain in Middle Earth and die. Perhaps Eladan and Elrohir fell under the same doom as Arwen, and died as mortals.

Aragorn, Elessar and age - According to the RPG e lives to be 210. If my game is set in 320 4th Age, then he has been dead for about 100 years. Not a problem there

Nearer 200 years, in fact. Aragorn was a geezer durring the War of the Ring. He was only a few decades younger than Bilbo.

Silmarils and their powers - I don't want to turn this into a lesson on the creation myths of Middle-Earth. I want this to be a quest my players can understand and get into. Stop the evil spider-queen from turning off the sun. They get that. It is palpable. I love the idea of the silmaril having to be returned to the sea. I think also they will be able to use its' light to kill Morlob and free to souls of the corrupt Quenuhuine. Not too sure about a big NPC they have never heard of. Maybe his spirit can give them some guidance all Obi-Wan like, but in the end the players MUST do it on their own.

As I mentioned before, I don't know as it could really work to turn of the sun, but then neither will anyone else in the game, hero or villain. And so long as your players manage to stop Morlob and her minions before they can pull it off, it doesn't really matter. But truly, the draw of the Silmarils and Fëanor's mighty oath makes them a magnet for trouble, sorrow, and war.

I certainly do believe that the players could use the Silmaril to destroy Morlob and free the Quenuhuine. Considering what just a pissed-off gardner with an elven knife and the reflected light of Ëarendil was able to do to Shelob, just think what a group of pissed-off heroes could do with the real thing!

As for including Maglor in your tale as an NPC, I just suggested it because he was tied so closely to the Silmaril lost in the Seas, and might be a good way to tie up the end of the story. The Oath of Fëanor was extremely powerful, and caused a whole lot of suffering in the First Age, and should still have repricussions even 6 millenia later, so the players are going to have to get rid of that Silmaril when they're done with it. Maglor is the last descendant of Fëanor left in Middle Earth (unless you make up one like I did), and the greatest minstrel of the Eldar (bar one), so it would make sense to tie him into the story at points. Perhaps as the characters are learning about what this gem is that the Quenuhuine are after, they might encounter a wandering elf minstrel of astounding skill, who sings to them ancient songs of the First Age, relating the story of the Silmarils. Give them more bits and pieces of that history as you go. Then once they've saved the day and retrieved the Silmaril, that minstrel could relate the end of the story. Then they realize who/what this minstrel is, and their exposure to all the suffering and destruction caused in the quest for the Silmarils over the ages should encourage them to "do the right thing" and chuck it back into the ocean.

Or something like that.

Anyway, this sounds like a great fading of Middle Earth campaign, one last hurrah for the Elves, facing down the last ancient threat in the world. After this, the remaining Elves vanish quickly into the West, and Men come finally into dominance, making their own evils rather than being subservient to some Evil from outside.

Now go out there and kick some butt, narrator!

-Chris Landmark

[calguard66]

Wow. Now I REALLY wanna play this game.

Unfortunately, I don't currently have a Middle Earth campaign... anybody living in the Sacto area interested?

I had a VERY successfull MERP 4th Age series a few years ago, but that group broke up. Perhaps I can get a new group together with the interest sparked by the movies.

Actually, I'm the guy caught between his desire to PLAY (rather than narrate), and the feeling that nobody else in the group does it as well as I do... so I always GM instead of play, which suits everybody else just fine.

[AslanC]

Originally posted by calguard66 I had a VERY successfull MERP 4th Age series a few years ago, but that group broke up. Perhaps I can get a new group together with the interest sparked by the movies.

Good luck with that

You know the only MERP product I wish I had right now is that big Poster Map they did that showed the entire continent. That was cool

[AslanC]

Originally posted by Chris Landmark Your name sounds pretty good. Go with it.

I like the way it rolls off tongue. It just sounds nice I find. Again thanks for that link.

Originally posted by Chris Landmark Of course, the choice of the half-elven was given to all Elrond's children, either to depart with him or remain in Middle Earth and die. Perhaps Eladan and Elrohir fell under the same doom as Arwen, and died as mortals.

Or I could see them, being sons of Elrond, hanging back to be among the last to head back to Elfhome. Either way a half dozen elves and abunch of human loremasters will drive the point home.

Originally posted by Chris Landmark Nearer 200 years, in fact. Aragorn was a geezer durring the War of the Ring. He was only a few decades younger than Bilbo.

Good point again. I think that makes for a different enough world, but close enough that it will be familiar to the players.

Originally posted by Chris Landmark And so long as your players manage to stop Morlob and her minions before they can pull it off, it doesn't really matter. But truly, the draw of the Silmarils and Fëanor's mighty oath makes them a magnet for trouble, sorrow, and war.

Actually I realized I need to have the big armies clashing moment where the armies of Morlob have brought the eternal night and they have to face off and then at the height of battle, or maybe a second one, they manage to undo it, free the souls of the shadowed elves and drive the orcs from the sunlight. Also kill Morlob at this time. There by removing the last vestiges of the Shadow from Middle-Earth. I might have to have them find the second Silmaril. Could be a way to tie in the son of Feanor.

Just to clear it up, I am going to treat the Silmaril as having the power to darken the sun (like an eternal eclipse) With two you can steal the light of the sun and the moon.

Originally posted by Chris Landmark I certainly do believe that the players could use the Silmaril to destroy Morlob and free the Quenuhuine. Considering what just a pissed-off gardner with an elven knife and the reflected light of Ëarendil was able to do to Shelob, just think what a group of pissed-off heroes could do with the real thing!

Agreed. Pissed off gardner He-he-he

Originally posted by Chris Landmark Maglor is the last descendant of Fëanor left in Middle Earth (unless you make up one like I did), and the greatest minstrel of the Eldar (bar one), so it would make sense to tie him into the story at points. (snip) Give them more bits and pieces of that history as you go. Then once they've saved the day and retrieved the Silmaril, that minstrel could relate the end of the story. (snip) ...caused in the quest for the Silmarils over the ages should encourage them to "do the right thing" and chuck it back into the ocean.

Okay now you got me thinking. But I don't want to do songs. Eek. The idea of me singing in Elvish or any other language is just wrong.

Originally posted by Chris Landmark Anyway, this sounds like a great fading of Middle Earth campaign, one last hurrah for the Elves, facing down the last ancient threat in the world. After this, the remaining Elves vanish quickly into the West, and Men come finally into dominance, making their own evils rather than being subservient to some Evil from outside.

Exactly Perfect way to sum it all up.

Originally posted by Chris Landmark Now go out there and kick some butt, narrator!

Will do sir, will do

[AslanC]

Originally posted by Calcoran
Oh, and Turin's sword, made from the black metal that fell from heaven, was indeed Eol's craft. It was named Anglachel (Iron Flame), and later Gurthang (Iron of Death). It was not your friendly neighbourhood type of sword like Sting or Glamring. Think more Stormbringer or the like : sentient and malevolent.

Do we know the final fate of these swords and what became of the Avari? I like the idea that the Avari were seduced by Ungoliant, and then earning their place in the world when they help Shelob overthrough Ungoliant and become Morlob. You know, promise of power and rules of Middle-Earth and all that

P.S. I would like to take a quick moment to thank all of you for your vast (and seemingly endless) Tolkien Knowledge. It really does help.

[Calcoran]

By saying "these swords" I assume that you mean Anguirel and Anglachel (aka. Gurthang).
Anguirel was presumably lost when Gondolin was ransacked. This means it could easily belong to the hoard of a dragon by now, or be found in an orc fortress treasure room.
Gurthang broke in half at Turin's death and was burried with him. Here again, nothing prevents you from having prying fingers dig her back. But you'd need a <I>really</I> good swordsmith to forge it anew. As someone else said, maybe Eol had another son?

[Calcoran]

As for the Avari, I'd say most of them miwed with Sindar and became Sylvan elves, in Mirkwood for instance. Some other may dwell further to the east, from which almost nothing is known.