Lessons from Helm's Deep

[Silverthorne]

Another point to make is that a man defending his family will fight better than a man with nothing behind him to protect. I can be sent to fight an enemy. If i die no one behind me falls. If i am defending my family I will be fighting harder to make sure that IF I go down then the bad guy might not have the strength to get to my family.

[Calcoran]

I'd have quite a lot to say about "internal film logic" ... if I wasn't at work .

Still, I have to ask about one thing: What's wrong with a <I>drawbridge</I>? I don't remember the description of Helm's Deep that well, so maybe Tolkien specifically wrote that there was none. If not, it'd have been a damn good idea I'd say!

[Eric R.]

I got think on the adavatage of the flank attack over the Rear attack which was mentioned earlier. A Rear attack will not provide the instant relief on the fornt as a Flank does. IN Fact a rear attack may actually help the front ranks as the pressure form the rear ranks will lesson as the troops reverse face to face the new threat. In this the lead attackers on the wall will have gain albit momentarily some tactical flexabilty free from the press of the rear ranks which breaks down most linier style attacks into unorganized mobs. Of course this holds up until the attacker begins to panic and survival instincts take over A flank attack forces both the front and rear ranks to react to the situtation at once and the press of the ranks will still be heading forward. The defender will immediately feel the lessoning of both the front attacking ranks and the press of the rear. A Rear attack would not lesson at all the danger faced by the front defenders ranks.

[CorpBoy]

Originally posted by Phantom

3) The reason for hitting the orcs at that angle was that it coincided with the sun rise, regular orcs fight less effectivly in sun light.

While I agree that it was to coincide with the sun rising, I don't think they were hampered by the mere presence of sunlight. These weren't your garden variety Orcs. They were Uruk-Hai, an army designed to move about in daylight.

That being said, Gandalf and the Riders of Rohan still gained a tactical advantage by using the sun because the Uruk-Hai had to look up into the sun to face the initial charge. "Target acquisition" would have to be difficult at best.

But once the initial charge was over and they were fighting hand-to-hand, the sunlight wouldn't play as much of a factor.

[Phantom]

Ahhh, well if you take a closer look at the Orc army at Helm's Deep all the pikemen were your garden varity orcs, so were the ones using the battering ram at the main gate, and placing the Blasting fire at the culvert. The Uruks were the heavy assault forces that exploited the breach.

[REG]

You mean all of the Uruk-Hai were all on the front line. That means the flank is protected by the weaker races.

[Phantom]

No. What I m saying is that all the pike holding troops were regular orcs not Uruks, there might have been (probably were) Uruks in the mix. What I can gather from what I saw was that the Uruks were there to exploit the breach.

[Evan van Eyk]

Originally posted by REG
You mean all of the Uruk-Hai were all on the front line. That means the flank is protected by the weaker races.

Actually that would make sense. There was nobody to be feared of - all Rohirrim were in Helms Deep and Eomer was not thought of to return - they had not count on Gandalf.

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
Actually that would make sense. There was nobody to be feared of - all Rohirrim were in Helms Deep and Eomer was not thought of to return - they had not count on Gandalf.

Thank you.

[Captain Blake]

Well, I went to see the movie finally, and the one thing that struck me as interesting as as Eomer and Gandalf start riding down the hill, the Ork pikemen at the bottom start wincing and holding their hands up to their eyes.

So, IMO, the sunlight (perhaps augmented by Gandalf?) was a tactical factor, moreso than the value of a rear attack.

Alex

[REG]

Personally, I think the sunlight was an added advantage to the rear cavalry attack. The cavalry charging downhill can have a profound psychological effect on the weaker races.

[calguard66]

Personnaly, I fight much better knowing that my wife is nowhere near danger...

Originally posted by Silverthorne
Another point to make is that a man defending his family will fight better than a man with nothing behind him to protect. I can be sent to fight an enemy. If i die no one behind me falls. If i am defending my family I will be fighting harder to make sure that IF I go down then the bad guy might not have the strength to get to my family.

[REG]

True, but then one would fight much harder to keep their loved ones out of danger, even to the point of putting one's body in between them, just enough to give the loved ones some time to escape.

BTW, and I don't mean to side-track this conversation, but in any of your games in the past ... mostly medieval fantasy ... have you ever described using children in battles, and I don't mean just the knights' pages and squires but also peasants as conscripts?

[Phantom]

I seem to remember my Pendragon character, Sir Marcus du Bourton has lead some of his vassels (old and young) into battle. Can't remember specifics.