Lessons from Helm's Deep

[Hugh Casey]

A friend sent this to me... he has WAY too much time on his hands!

Cool tactics from Helms deep:

Forces of good:
Made relatively few mistakes and avoided charge into open until it was only option.
Gandalf blinding Orc pikes & avoiding impalement of Aemor's troops on Uruk-Hai pikes.

Forces of Evil
Employment of steel grapples (ala roman Corvus) on ladders.
Surprise employment of explosives.
Disciplined deployment of Pikes versus flank attack.
Amazingly fast deployment of siege weapons (catapults & huge ladders)

Below is a list of tactical errors in the battle of Helms deep:

Forces of Good:
Over-crowding of wall which led to heavy casualties when bomb blew.
Trying to shoot torch bearer rather than evacuate area.
Cavalry attack down shear gravel slope. No way to alter tactic once commited & many horses could slip & die. Better to hit orcs fully in rear.
Cavalry attack in flank. Orcs had less facing to change than if attack had been rear. (90 degree v. 180)
Archers held bows at ready too long in downpour.
No boiling oil/sand/water to blind/scald/burn attackers. (Just one pot of Greek Fire...)

Forces of Evil:
Too many own casualties from blowing up the wall. A couple hundred more Uruk-Hai could have made a difference at the end.
No rear scouts to warn of relief force.
Why blow up wall & not keep door?
Crossbowman too scattered and cramped to be effective.
Too few archers overall.
No organized unit ready to storm Breach of wall (they got blowed up too).
Reserve? We don't need no stinking reserve!

[Phantom]

I agree with all the good points he mentioned, but I must point out what are some flaws in his thinking for the negs;

1) The defenders never even conceived of the notion that something like blasting fire would be used. ie I get the impression explosives like this weren't used.

2) Killing the torch bearer would have stopped a breach, Clearing the area would have ensured one.

3) The reason for hitting the orcs at that angle was that it coincided with the sun rise, regular orcs fight less effectivly in sun light.

4) Pike handling phalanx's aren't that manueverable.

5) They were throwing rocks down on the orcs at the main door, just as good. As long as the rocks are big enough.

6) The orc scouts could have been over run. Not shown I know, but a possiblity.

7) The culvert was the weakest point in the wall. I think their plan was to breach in as many areas as possible (ie culvert and main door with ram.)

Your friend forgot to mention the one tactical blunder I found on the orc side. When the Tortise was working its way up the ramp to the main door they should have had shield men on the sides. They were well protected on the front and top, but the flanks just got needlessly ravaged. Oh well, they are just orcs after all.

And yes, like your friend I have way too much time on my hands at present.

[Lt.Khrys Antos]

Well if you want to be picky about the good's sides mistakes, the ramp leading to the gate should have had a steep turn to prevent battering rams having an easy access to it.

As for the evil side, they needed more Orcs. Screw tactics, send hordes and hordes of Orcs until you have a mountain of corpses and you can simply walk up to the top of the walls. Maybe I'm just too bloodthirsty...

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Lt.Khrys Antos
Well if you want to be picky about the good's sides mistakes, the ramp leading to the gate should have had a steep turn to prevent battering rams having an easy access to it.

Hate to be picky, but medieval defense designs is an interest of mine. If you take a close look at the main gate to Helm's Deep the ramp leading to it does have a curve. However, such a curve would not stop a man portable battering ram of the type the orcs used, essentially a small log, sharpend on one end and carried by about six to 10 orcs. We're not talking Grond here.

[Eric R.]

The culvert should have been damed and a fairly decent sized mote or pool could have prevented the easy access to it which was the case in the movie, granted the Orcs would have just bridged/destroyed the mote but at least that would have taken more time away from the attackers. The pack on the walls should have been far less then shown, further as an preventive measure I would have started the civilians on the rear exit path long before "Is there another way out of here" would even had to been asked.

Phantom, glad you saw the mistake of the Tortise like I did.

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Eric R.
The culvert should have been damed and a fairly decent sized mote or pool could have prevented the easy access to it which was the case in the movie, granted the Orcs would have just bridged/destroyed the mote but at least that would have taken more time away from the attackers. The pack on the walls should have been far less then shown, further as an preventive measure I would have started the civilians on the rear exit path long before "Is there another way out of here" would even had to been asked.

Phantom, glad you saw the mistake of the Tortise like I did.

A case could be put forth, which I believe, that Saruman wouldn't have known about the culvert in the first place had he not had Grima's insight into the design of Helm's Deep. And again I think it goes back the idea of explosives being a new invention in siege work. Theoden certainly looked surprised at it's use. Mote works would have very difficult to put in that area, very rocky from what I saw. The fortress was carved out of the living rock of the ravine, caves were made use of, and the water source itself was probably a mountain spring. All in all from what I read in the book and saw in the movie Helm's Deep was a very strong pre-explosive fort.

[Liquidator Queeg]

Just one huge mistake ...

Why the heck did Theoden send his women and children TO Helm's Deep? And don't gimme that movie crap about the countryside being pillaged and burned. I mean, sending your loved ones to the place of battle is insanely stooooopid, and not in line with the books anyway.

I guess it would have taken too much time in the film for some Rohan schmuck to mention the name Dunharrow. Lest all that wonderful footage jarringly plopped into the middle of the film (so they could get Cate, Hugo, and Liv's names in the credits) remain on the cutting room floor. But I digress ...

Peter Jackson, for all his supposed brilliance as a filmmaker, certainly has little to no grasp of pseudo-historical military tactics. At least Tolkien understood that much!

Steve

[calguard66]

It was a mistake, but not for the reasons you use.

Theoden couldn't believe that the Orcs were doing anything more than raiding and pilliaging. He never conceived that Saruman could have an army of thousands.

His thought process what that the orcs wouldn't have the numbers to take Helm's Deep, would simply raid an burn, and then go away. His goal was to protect what was truely Rohan, her people, and rebuild everything else.

His mistake was in underestimating his enemy... easy to do when you have no current intelligence and must base your plans on history.

Originally posted by Steven A Cook
Just one huge mistake ...

Why the heck did Theoden send his women and children TO Helm's Deep? And don't gimme that movie crap about the countryside being pillaged and burned. I mean, sending your loved ones to the place of battle is insanely stooooopid, and not in line with the books anyway.

[Evan van Eyk]

Its a typical example of so called 'confusion changes' of the original book. I guess Jackson and Co, found it to complicated for a viewer ( of this already very fast movie ) if another location is introduced thus they combined Helm's Deep with the retreat ground of the civilians - clearly shown by the fact that obviously the path of the dead is in Helms Deep in the movie.
First it is said Helms Deep has no further exit and then Gamling says at the end there is one small path, which I think will be revelaed to be Aragorn's path.
Additionally in the book there are civilians in Helm's Deep they are refugees of the surrounding area. I guess its the same reason why Arwen found the companions in the first movie instead of Glorfindel - it would have been to many characters to introduce in that case to many locations. another reason is the danger of the extinction of Rohan's people was more imminent. All Rohirrim were gathered at that point there would have been no survivors.


However I do not think that the forces of good did so many mistakes:

not 'overcrowding' the wall would have ment a hole in the defence and thus wpould have left open a spot for the orcs to get there ladders on. Additionally that 'bomb' was a new invention of Saruman and unknown to the Rohirrim. ( see the scene with Grima, where he doubts the efficiency of that powder, very funny the view of Saruman when he puts Grima's candel out of the way ).
I also do not think that Aragorn actually knew what would happen and thus ordered no retreat. He probably only sensed that this olympic runner was a danger. It also questionable if a retreat would have been possible within that battle chaos and you have to remember, that the Rohirrim were actually battling the Orcs there in melee combat, I doubt thos would have let them go.

The slope thing is very special. Gandalf had to use the morning sun to blind the orcs, he needed the sun in his back, so that he and his troops could get past the lances. He himself would have got there with his own light, but there were far more troops.


The only mistake I see is that with oil and such things. Maybe they did not use it in the movie because of 'violence' reasons. Another option would have been large trunk, which would have rolled all the orcs down the way they came.



Forces of Evil:

Well maybe it took 50 calsulties by the bomb, maybe 200. But there were more than 10000 orcs, thats only 2 percent - I do not believe that would have made a difference.

Maybe there were rear scouts, but I doubt Gandalf would have let them away and additionally they did not come from rear, but from the eastern side.

The blowing up is simple. By blowing up the wall they create two weak spots instead of one, thus the defenders had to spread their already thin troops more widely and could not concentrate on the gate.

And I guess the Orcs knew they could not compete with Elve Archers, not in range and efficiency, thus they counted on melee, which would make the Elve Archers useless.

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Steven A Cook
Just one huge mistake ...

Why the heck did Theoden send his women and children TO Helm's Deep? And don't gimme that movie crap about the countryside being pillaged and burned. I mean, sending your loved ones to the place of battle is insanely stooooopid, and not in line with the books anyway.

Steve

As opposed to sending all his warrior's to Helm's Deep and his unprotected civies to some other local? All the while the plains of Rohan are being patrolled by Warg Riders. I personally think Theoden's planning was sound. Eodras was vulnerable, and as stated in the movie "no force had ever breached the Hornburg" and "Helm's Deep has saved them before..." He had no reason to believe things would be any different this time around.

[Evan van Eyk]

Originally posted by Phantom

3) The reason for hitting the orcs at that angle was that it coincided with the sun rise, regular orcs fight less effectivly in sun light.

not only regular orcs, which were only lightly present at Helms Deep. But directly viewing into sunlight is a severe handicap and a major advantage for the attacker. that is the reason why attacks are often done with the sun in the back, e.g. in plane attacks.

[Liquidator Queeg]

Originally posted by Phantom
As opposed to sending all his warrior's to Helm's Deep and his unprotected civies to some other local? All the while the plains of Rohan are being patrolled by Warg Riders. I personally think Theoden's planning was sound. Eodras was vulnerable, and as stated in the movie "no force had ever breached the Hornburg" and "Helm's Deep has saved them before..." He had no reason to believe things would be any different this time around.

No, he shouldn't have sent his civvies to Helm's Deep. He should have sent them to Dunharrow (along with a miniscule guard), which is an easily defended fort in the mountains right near Edoras. Warg riders may be able to pillage and burn the countryside, but their mobility and strength of attack ain't much use against a fort in a mountain pass.

Theoden's choice to defend Helm's Deep was a good one. It's a sensible military tactic to divert your enemy's main force to a place you can defend. However, it's not solid military thinking to drag your civilians along with you to the "big fight".

Using Dunharrow as protection for civilians is exactly what Tolkien did in the book. Why? Because it makes sense.

But I do understand that Peter Jackson needed to have Eowyn, Aragorn (and co.) and Theoden all in the same place for the film. Besides, introducing another fortress would have destroyed the illusion he deliberately built into the film: that Rohan as a nation consisted of one fort, one manor, and a few farmsteads.

Anyway, that's my line of thinking.

Steve

[Evan van Eyk]

Dunharrow does not exist in the movie, at least its never mentioned. Dramatically speaking it makes more sense to put the poor civilians in one place, to make the danger even more dangerous, because the whole Rohan people is threatened. Additionally I think Dunharrow was left out, because the movie was already complicated enough for people who did not read the book. They had to jump between Frodo/ Sam, Merry/ Pippin and Aragorn and friends. Including another location with a group of people might have complicated things even more. Such problems do not occur in the book, because its not that fast and you can reread passages if needed and Sam/Frodo our covered in a single book, so they are left out from the Rohan story all together.

[Liquidator Queeg]

Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
Dunharrow does not exist in the movie, at least its never mentioned. Dramatically speaking it makes more sense to put the poor civilians in one place, to make the danger even more dangerous, because the whole Rohan people is threatened.

I know it does not exist in the movie. But it should have been in there, IMHO. However, this is where "movie internal logic" breaks down. For the sake of drama, a (supposedly) stalwart nation and its (supposedly) wise king is reduced to the level of tactical bumbling ninnies, unable to defend themselves, or organize their forces and civilians, except to load them all up on the wagon train and head to Helm's Deep. How is it that scouts from Gondor (rememeber the scene with Faramir, his right-hand man, and the close up on the map?) and even the Elves of Rivendell and Lothlorien knew of the perils facing Rohan, yet Rohan's own military force did not until Aragorn shows up and says "Oh, by the way, that army that's coming is 10,000 strong"? In less than 5 days, the Elves managed to travel all the way to Helm's Deep (even Gondor scouts get all the way back to Heneth Annun), yet it took Gandalf the same time to find Eomer within Rohan and get him to Helm's Deep?

Additionally I think Dunharrow was left out, because the movie was already complicated enough for people who did not read the book. They had to jump between Frodo/ Sam, Merry/ Pippin and Aragorn and friends. Including another location with a group of people might have complicated things even more. Such problems do not occur in the book, because its not that fast and you can reread passages if needed and Sam/Frodo our covered in a single book, so they are left out from the Rohan story all together.

Absolutely. However, just because I accept why changes were made for the sake of "drama" and time, doesn't mean I can't find internally faulty logic within the film.

Steve

[Phantom]

The way I see it is...A fortress, is a fortress. Why divide your forces when you are expecting a massive attack? And sending your civies with a small guard to another fortress, which will be less garrisoned does it seem too clever, if you ask me. What if the Orc army attacked there first? Score 1 for Saurman and the visiting team is what.