Ok, I just have to ask.

[Phantom]

Opinions expressed probably aren't those of all Canadians.


Why are the Americans so gung ho to hang those two pilots who accidently killed the 4 Canadian soldiers last spring? As far as I know the families hold no grudge, and speaking as a Canadian niether do I, perhaps I am in the minority. It was war, accidents like this, as tragic as they are...happen. Now, I'm not saying they shouldn't be punished, they did technically disobey orders...But, manslaughter?!

It may just be my perception, but we Canadians seem to have moved on with life, why is it that the American Justice and Military establishments can't? They made a mistake, in a very intense situation.

[kimq]

As a Canadian I can say that I'm most unimpressed with the whole bombing of our soldiers. I'm even more unimpressed with how the American government initially mishandled the situation. I'm still riled.

[REG]

I doubt we can answer your question, it won't satisfy ALL Canadians, divided as it is.

Personally, to appease folks like kimq, I'd hang the pilots' families and relatives (including elders and children) to balance the lives lost (trained soldiers that the government invested their money and other resources).

Of course, if you have a satisfying way to resolve the incident than the one I have offered, I'm all ears.

[Jabara Eris]

Originally posted by REG
Personally, to appease folks like kimq, I'd hang the pilots' families and relatives (including elders and children) to balance the lives lost (trained soldiers that the government invested their money and other resources).

Reg, your answer was rather ... disturbing.

How much government money is worth the execution of the pilots -- and their familes?

The idea of even putting a price tag on the life of a human being seems rather sick to me.

Maybe I'm interpreting your response incorrectly? I hope so.

[qerlin]

Originally posted by Jabara Eris
Maybe I'm interpreting your response incorrectly? I hope so.

Um...I'm pretty sure he's being facicious.

Unlike the Italian cable car incident, where the pilots should have been hung out to drip-dry -- it was stupidity and machismo that got a bunch of people killed, the 'friendly fire' incident is a different matter. During operations, thngs move fast & the pilots in the US military get run hard (forget the 8 hours of sleep thing; they get 8 hours between missions, when lucky); mistakes onthe battlefield are really easy to make: you're tired, you're stressed, you're hungry, you got back (or more likely, late) intelligence. You have to operate quickly.

Try going for 48 hours with a few hours sleep under very stressful conditions. People screw up.

I'd look into how their command was running operations. I suspect we'd find the pilots were getting stim'ed and thrown up there far too often, and that the intel & liaison people were having to pass their info through a bunch of idiots at brigade or higher. That's where most friendly fire incidents germinate.

[calguard66]

Well, we aren't all in a rush to hang them... but we must court martial them in a timely manner.

It does seem fairly clear that they disobeyed orders which, since they are commissioned officers, is not unforgivable in itself... but they disobeyed orders and were WRONG.

A commissioned officer's duty, occasionally, is to look at the orders he has been given... understanding that they are perfectly good, lawful and informed orders... exercise his judgement, and do something else.

The penalty, however, for exercising POOR judgement is severe.

That's why they get paid more.

A court martial must determine whether these officers exercised poor judgement. Given what I know of the evidence, I think it will be found that they did.

The pressure of the situation is irrelevant... they are paid and trained to make deadly decisions. Anny commisioned officer holds the lives of his soldiers and even the soldiers of the enemy in his hands. He is responsible for exercising his judgement under all conditions. Once again, exercise of poor judgement is punished severely.

Originally posted by Phantom

It may just be my perception, but we Canadians seem to have moved on with life, why is it that the American Justice and Military establishments can't? They made a mistake, in a very intense situation.

[Pelagius]

A sad event.

Does it warrant 64 year jail sentence - No.
Does it warrant more saying that it is the governments fault - yes.

The idea of even putting a price tag on the life of a human being seems rather sick to me.

I agree. Not a matter of dollars and cents

Try going for 48 hours with a few hours sleep under very stressful conditions. People screw up.

I hope war never becomes so casual as to be 9 to 5.

[Phantom]

Yes, but there have been bigger military blunders in history. And most of the officers involved were more responsible. Punish them, certainly. But, all I see by getting rid of them is just weakening a country. Up until now they've had spotless records, AFAIK anyway, they are good soldiers and excellent pilots, which make them valuable resources.

[StyroFoam Man]

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

[Phantom]

Having a nuke reactor go China Syndrome is slightly different from this.

Just to go back in history a bit, what about that Apache squadron that wasted that Brit Recon Squad in the Gulf War? They killed about 4 Brit Soldiers, and after the prelim annoucnments you never heard anything more. Why sould these guys be treated any different? Because they are officers and the copter pilots were Warrants?

Now there is a recruiting incentive if I ever heard one.

[First of Two]

I suspect the difference is that the Brit and US leadership of the time tended to hold to the 'understanding' that "these things happen" in the heat of a conflict, whereas the more 'progressive' elements in both our (Canada and the US) societies do not.

But I could be wrong.

[Greg Smith]

Just for once I wished that our leaders would stand up to the US leadership. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have any real effect, but I'd respect them a little more.

The freindly fire incident in the Gulf War really rankled. When Mechforce UK visited Gencon in 1991, we had T-shirts with the motto 'Freindly Fire our Specialty' in Latin with a picture of a Thunderbolt battlemech (BTW Phantom they were A10s not Apaches) destroying an APC.

I wouldn't want anyone's career to be sacrificed for politics, but justice must be seen to be done. This incident must not be just brushed under the carpet like the British one was.

[StyroFoam Man]

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

[ComaBoy]

Styro- You made an excellent point but I feel I need to make one addition; US Navy nuke plants have never had an accident because they're overdesigned like crazy AND are run by well trained/motivated ("don't screw up!") people.

[REG]

Originally posted by qerlin

Um...I'm pretty sure he's being facicious.

Heh.

All I'm saying is that for individuals like kimq there is no other way to satisfy this tragic incident unless it is "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" method, or in this case, a soldier's life for a soldier's life.

If the military court should decide that the pilot should receive the death penalty for this friendly fire incident, so let it be.

Of course, I don't know much about military law or how the US is going to handle it, but I'm guessing it is about the same level of standards if the incident were reversed and the Canadian military court will decide the fate of their pilot in question.