(ICON) Injury question, need help.

[Phoenix]

At what point would you call a limb gone?

Last night one of my player's characters took 21 points of phaser damage to his upper arm. Normally this would not have been a problem, the target dies, but this character survived and was still awake...by the chart. (Max health human).

The two questions breaks down to:
1) "Does he still have an arm there?"
2) "Is any thing recoverable, if the arm is gone?"

[Owen E Oulton]

By "max health human" I take it you mean he had 5 Fitness with a +2 Vitality Edge? If the weapon was set to a lethal setting (i.e. not a stun setting), I'd rule that the arm was gone, either blown away or simply disintegrated. Luckily, limbs in Trek can be regrown (see TNG Ethics to see medical replication technology, and DS9 Shakaar for references to regrowing arms). Even if the PC has a Disad which rejects regeneration, bionic replacement is possible (see DS9 season 7 episodes dealing with Nog's loss of a leg, especially It's Only a Paper Moon).

[Phoenix]

Sorry, the phaser was on setting 8...or 9 in a pulse mode. I was thinking crippled or blown off, but at a light disrupt not disintegrated...entirely.


Really I just wondering what to tell the Player when we breif him on what he missed...someone else was playing his character, with permission.

Thanks for your imput Owen. It's good to hear from you.

[Phantom]

Basically put? I hope he didn't have the ambidextreous advantage. His arm, what's left of it, is a french fry.

[Greg Smith]

Originally posted by Owen E Oulton
Luckily, limbs in Trek can be regrown (see TNG Ethics to see medical replication technology, and DS9 Shakaar for references to regrowing arms). Even if the PC has a Disad which rejects regeneration, bionic replacement is possible (see DS9 season 7 episodes dealing with Nog's loss of a leg, especially It's Only a Paper Moon).

This arose in my game recently. I ruled that a PC had lost his lower arm. The player said that it could be cloned, I said that he had to have a cybernetic replacement, citing Nog as my precedent.

Why did Nog have a cybernetic leg when he could have had a regrown one? Was it stated on screen?

[Dan Gurden]

The key phrase here is 'Biosynthetic'... which could be anything...

Apart from Cybernetic that is... In Cyberpunk terms Biosynthetic implies either cloned/regrown or Biotech...

But lets look at it from a Trek Point of View;

Cybernetics (ie; Picards heart, geordis eyes, Sevens 'other' Implants) These are about and in use. They dont seem to be frowned upon although interaction with the Borg might have longer term consequences about the use of Cybernetic implants... Perhaps they have gone out of fashion since Wolf 359?

Cloned limbs... We have only seen one genetronic replicator that was REALLY frowned upon as an experiment. With a little fine tuning this might well wor and become standard practice, although this would suit organs rather than limbs (although the implied advances in micro-cellular surgery might mean that limbs are equally applicable).

Cloning body parts is where this falls down. How do you just clone a limb without the rest of the body. This would create a new legal entity so harvesting body parts would be a no-no. if there is a way to simply clone the limb then this is a possibility otherwise practitioners would likely find themselves treated like Vidiians...

BioTech Limbs. On the assumption that this is simply a Biotech replacement. Mostly organic, and a simple replacement designed to look and act just like the original (as implied by Nog) this is probably the advanced tech version of the Cyberlimb. Sure you cant put a tricoder and a minigun into the forearm like any good Solo should (oops wrong system), but neither will it set off weapon alarms...

As an aside, in the 'Art of Star Trek' it shows a couple of sketches that imply that After Best of Both Worlds Picard had a cybernetic/Biosynthetic arm after the Borg had replaced one of his during his time as Locutus... Totally non canon but an interesting connection...

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by Phantom
Basically put? I hope he didn't have the ambidextreous advantage. His arm, what's left of it, is a french fry.

As a matter of fact, he did. Ambidex. It allowed him to fire back and save the engineer with his left arm after he woke back up.

[Greg Smith]

Originally posted by Dan Gurden
The key phrase here is 'Biosynthetic'... which could be anything...

Apart from Cybernetic that is... In Cyberpunk terms Biosynthetic implies either cloned/regrown or Biotech...

Synthetic implies artificial.

But lets look at it from a Trek Point of View;

Cybernetics (ie; Picards heart, geordis eyes, Sevens 'other' Implants) These are about and in use.

Yeah, I forgot those. The bulk of canonical info suggests cybernetics.

BioTech Limbs. On the assumption that this is simply a Biotech replacement. Mostly organic, and a simple replacement designed to look and act just like the original (as implied by Nog) this is probably the advanced tech version of the Cyberlimb. Sure you cant put a tricoder and a minigun into the forearm like any good Solo should (oops wrong system), but neither will it set off weapon alarms...

When I told my player that he was getting a cybernetic limb, he immediately went and got his Chromebooks.

[Dan Gurden]

Originally posted by Greg Smith
Synthetic implies artificial.

By definition, but as nobody in Star Trek Trek seems to go an choose to have a limb hacked off by choice like theyt do in Cyberpunk, I simply assume that in the Trek Universe if its synthetic its not original...

As in having been born blind, having been stabbed through the heart or having had your leg blown off under fire... Or in the first episode of the new series of ER, having an arm severed by Helicopter Tail Rotor... Man that image is going to stick with me for a while even if it was special effects...

Put that way it becomes a lot less appealing.

Thats not to say your player was wrong to run for a chromebook. We have seen with Geordi that his VISOR (or his current cybernetic replacement eyes) offer multi-spectrographic abilities among other options normally found in a Cyberpunk rulebook. But without a humanity or monetary cost what the character gets is down to you as GM.

In fact the ICON rules offer a way out of this. As GM you are within your rights to determine that the character pays the XP cost (normally 3x DP cost) for the 'Medical Cure' advancement... Each point over the 'medical condition' that the severed limb grants for nothing adds to the ability of the new limb.

As a GM I would award the Flaw and Advancement at no charge (even if the player of the character was present for the problem which you say they were not), but a cloned limb would be a prrmanent balance, no flaw/advancement... A Cyber/Biosynthetic limb would buy both and offer the chance for the player to upgrade the limb. on the downside that also give the bad guys the futire opportunity to take the limb away at a future date...

I am after all a truely evil GM...

[Greg Smith]

Originally posted by Dan Gurden


As in having been born blind, having been stabbed through the heart or having had your leg blown off under fire... Or in the first episode of the new series of ER, having an arm severed by Helicopter Tail Rotor... Man that image is going to stick with me for a while even if it was special effects...

Yeah that was unpleasant. I really shouldn't watch ER while eating my dinner.

Put that way it becomes a lot less appealing.

Thats not to say your player was wrong to run for a chromebook. We have seen with Geordi that his VISOR (or his current cybernetic replacement eyes) offer multi-spectrographic abilities among other options normally found in a Cyberpunk rulebook. But without a humanity or monetary cost what the character gets is down to you as GM.

I ruled it was cybernetic, but in no real difference in appearance and feel. Like Nog's legs. I wouldn't let him have anything out of the Chromebook.

The player was present BTW, just happened to get shot while using a doorway as cover, so only his arm was visible.

[Ineti]

Originally posted by Phoenix
[B]Really I just wondering what to tell the Player when we breif him on what he missed...someone else was playing his character, with permission.

Poor player: "So what happened last time, guys?"

(Other players look sheepishly at each other)

Poor player: "C'mon, tell me? My character didn't get into trouble, right? Just spent the episode in 10-Forward, right?"

Other players: "Ummmm...."



"Look, your bloody's arm off!"

I guess that engineer had a disarming smile...


Okay, I'll stop now.

[Phoenix]

Engineer = Attractive Female, no real combat experience.
One armed Security = COH: Defender. If any one has seen "The Emperor's New Groove" He is based on Kronk...quite possibly the closes a sentient being can get to non-sentient standings and still breath.


Greg, how interesting - same Scenario here too. Lt. Cmdr Manicotti was using the door frame as cover, head and arm exposed.

[Thia]

Originally posted by Ineti
I guess that engineer had a disarming smile...

Arg. Very, very, very bad pun. For that, you should be... ummm... [Tries to think of something appropriate and can't- which should've been a foregone conclusion, since it involves thinking]...

[redwood973]

Sorry I missed this thread from way back when.

I would love to see what the Star Wars RPG does with missing/replaced limbs. Luke didn't seem to gain all that much of an advantage from his replacement, felt pain and reacted to stimuli. Are missing/replaced limbs covered in any detail worth my getting a copy (which would never be used for game play [sorry, we are a group of trekkies])?