Rick Berman's helming of Star Trek

[Snake_Plissken]

as you all know, Rick Berman and Brannon Braga are being constantly attacked by the more hard-core ST fans. Those attacks are often tied with the theme that ST is dying.

Now, IIRC, Berman was handpicked by GR to be his sucessor. Berman was handed active control of TNG around the time of TNG's 3rd season, when GR's deteriorating health prevented him from actively supervising TNG. Would a lot if people agree that TNG became really good starting with season 3? The early 90's was when ST was at its most popular point ever, with the fresh success of ST6 and the ongoing popularity of TNG. Now, I think that the "power" behind ST6 was Leonard Nimoy but up until the end of TNG (1994) Berman hadn't screwed up.

Then ST:Generations came. Ok, it was a mediocre movie, but still watchable and it made a good amount of money. In the meantime we had DS9- the first 2 seasons were bad, but it got interesting with the Dominion threat. There are rumors that he copied B5, but even then, many feel a lot of DS9 episodes were at least as good, if not better, than many TNG episodes. The success of DS9 endured until 1999.

Again, in the meantime, we had Voyager. I think this is where Berman and co really started to get major flack. But then in 1996, we got ST: First Contact which is widely regarded as one of the best in the series, and it also got wide critical acclaim and it also did a lot of money.

So until that point (late 90's) one could argue that he did a fair job at helming ST in general.

It seems to me however that most of the criticism directed towards him came during that timeframe. In the late 90's (98-99) was the period when DS9 was ended, Voyager was the only ST on TV, and we got ST: Insurrection at the theatres. Then onwards on, the criticism got worse with the end of Voyager, the arrival of Enterprise and lately with the huge fiasco that Nemesis was.

My personal take on it is that he did a fair job for a good while, but lately (the last couple of years) he and his gang seem to have lost his (their) way...

care to comment??

[Don Mappin]

I have nothing to add other than it's cool that we've got a user named "Snake Plissken" on the boards.

[Eric R.]

Over at Treknation there was a "gagle" [i.e. a story with alot of various points in it]" story on Berman. In it he talked about Blooper reels, but I though it it was intrigue for what it revealed in advertently:

"I have been opposed to gag reels simply because Star Trek is something that always borders on the silly. You've got people flying at impossible speeds and spaceships defying gravity. You've got a lot of things that are accepted, but that are almost scientifically ridiculous. It's so easy to turn it into a parody. I've been asked to put together an Enterprise blooper reel for a CBS project, and I agreed to do it. So I'm loosening up a little in that area."

If this suggests his basic attitude currently, that the show and premis is at base a silly concept then it explians why the show has lacked much imagination plus there disrespect for some of its basic fundementals. Why put new energy into somthing which might completely expose it for what it is in his warp mind [no pun intended]? On the Upside there seems to be alot of changes in store for UPN in the coming year consider the pis poor showing it has made this season.

[StyroFoam Man]

This message has been removed on request by the
poster

[pathstrider]

If this suggests his basic attitude currently, that the show and premis is at base a silly concept then it explians why the show has lacked much imagination plus there disrespect for some of its basic fundementals

I'm not so sure. I agree completely with not doing bloopers, but I'd put it in a different way -

Instead of 'silly' how about 'it would spoil the magic of trek'. For example, I was at the Star Trek Adventure in London the other day, and I made the mistake of looking at some of props too closely....

...thus realising how cheap/silly some of them look - yet I think they look cool on screen.

I agree he didn't phrase it well, and that's an issue in of itself, but I think he meant well.

Basically, on the Berman issue - I thought seasons 1 and 2 of TNG were a load of trash. And then it got better, almost overnight. For that I thank him, but I think it's time for a change. Voyager and Enteprise have done that to me.

later days!

Mark

[ComaBoy]

OK, I'll stick my neck out. . .

Other than the opening battle in First Contact what was it that everyone found so exciting about this movie?

[Dan Gurden]

Originally posted by Don Mappin
I have nothing to add other than it's cool that we've got a user named "Snake Plissken" on the boards.

He always looked taller on TV?

To be honest Snake, can I call you Snake? I think that Berman gets flak that was originally aimed at Braga, and most of that flak (while claimed to be about the destruction of all that is Trek) is mainly motivated out of helplessness (in that the average fan has little influence over the series direction), jealousy (in that many feel they could do better, whether they can or cant is something we will never know) and Pride (because many of us have grown up with trek, and feel we know it, having seen it as the edgy show cancelled for lack of ratings through to the Green Cash-Cow it has become)...

The simple fact is.

Trek makes money. Lots of it.

If adding wrestlers into the program gets viewers, if adding lyrics makes it hip, if making small changes goes unoticed by the target audience (who wasn't even born 35 years ago) works then whether Braga or Brannon do it or not, THATS what will be required by TPTB.

So whether they do it is up to them. they make entertainment for the masses. They make Entertainment I like. More power to them, even if the odd occasion goes against what I think... If I cared that much I'd find a way to be a decision maker...

Oh well, time to don the flame retardant suit for some of the comments I feel sure are going to get mis-quoted...

Hey, wasn't that eye patch on the other side a minute ago?

[Dan Stack]

[Very minor Enterprise Season Two spoiler at bottom of this post]

Hmmm... First I need to state where I stand on modern Trek... Apathetic would probably be the best word. I didn't care for Voygager. I enjoyed the 1st season of Enterprise but the 2nd for some reason hasn't really engaged me. Not saying it's been "bad", more "ok". Now, to be honest, I've been through a lot of life changes (becoming a daddy, getting laid off and finding a new job, etc.), but I still go out of my way to catch "Law & Order" but I'm less excited about Enterprise of late.

As for Berman... I dunno, I agree with others that I think TNG got a heck of a lot better when he took over the show. What I find interesting though is his job there was to nurture it - he had nothing to do really with its creation, if i understand things correctly. I wonder if that means he isn't the best of architects but is a good manager?

Is Trek any worse than it was a decade ago? To be honest, probably. It seems a little less bold. I don't worry about "canon" as much as most people, but it's been a while since Trek pissed me off. And when I say pissed off, I mean that in a good way - I mean it challenged me in a way I didn't like. TNG managed to do it once a season at least, as did DS9.

If Berman is to "blame", then it might be because he's tired - that is an awfully long time on one job. But I'm not even certain I'm right if it's gotten worse - I could be tired too. After seeing eight gazillion episodes, perhaps a feeling of sameness is inevitable. I'm probably going to wait for Nemesis to come out on DVD, not out of being spoiled by the script (I haven't been), but rather not being excited about it.

I'd agree that an intellectual shakeup would probably be a good thing.


Spoilers follow...







You were warned....

I am somewhat curious about an upcoming episode entitled "Stigma", which I believe is suppoed to be an AIDS allegory involving T'Pol.

Bottom padding spoiler space too for those scrolling past.
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b'bye.

[pathstrider]

I could be tired too

Agreed. I never know if it's them or me. I was in my early teens when TNG came out, and though I still love most of the epsiodes....

I'm wondering if the apathy is me getting old.

However, I agree that as long as it makes money then Berman is doing a good job. I've seen too many shows I've liked go up the swany (Crusade, Brimestone...) - some show is better then none.


However, if viewing figures of Ent are true - the rot has started. It may not be his fault, no-one can keep things going for this long...

later days!

Mark

[Balok]

I generally agree with your comments, Snake, although I feel that Brannon Braga's arrival signals the beginning of what I believe is a downturn in quality.

Nemesis has only made about $40 million so far. It will probably not pass the current low boxoffice record holder, which I believe is ST:V at around $55 million. I think the suits at Paramount would be wise to take a look at why Enterprise's ratings are dropping, and why Nemesis did so poorly.

Sometimes, it's necessary to bring in new talent. That doesn't automatically mean the old talent has gotten bad, so much as it has "burned out". New minds with fresh ideas are what's called for; and for all the money they've made, Paramount should let Berman and Braga take a swing at other shows -- but it should pull them from Trek.

YMMV.

[Phantom]

It's like anyother Empire that has existed. The old Emperor (Roddenberry) works hard to to establish the Empire, he then passes out of the picture and the heirs (B&B) come in with a bunch of silly ideas and quickly run it into the ground. To quote Valarus "It is an old story."

I have to disagree with the 'burned out' idea, most of the trek writers are good, we just haven't seen any of their work lately. What is needed is new blood, pure and simple.

[First of Two]

Someone wrote this on another site I frequent, and since I agree with all of it, I'm going to steal it and reprint it here:

A few other folks have made some interesting story suggestions already, but I'll dive back in anyway.

MMK, here is the problem: Enterprise is set at a different time from the other modern Trek series, with a different setting and background to be explored, with different constraints, and so on. But instead of doing shows that arise from the show's premise, the producers seem to favor shows that could be done with very minimal changes on any other Trek series. It's the same thing that happened with Voyager.

Here's some of what I'd be thinking about if I were writing or producing Enterprise.

1. Cut back on the aliens. We're still fairly close to Earth, closer than TOS was, and they didn't encounter a new alien every week.

2. Explore the Earth colonies. Are they going to be part of the Federation once it gets going? Are they sovereign? Are they Earth national protectorates? Are they bold pioneers, ravagers and polluters, political or religious dissidents? Are they xenophobic about the alien races humanity is now encountering?

3. Explore Earth. What are people's attitudes there to Enterprise, space exploration, Vulcans, space colonies?

4. Explore Starfleet. Are more warp 5 starships under construction? As the fleet grows, will Enterprise's mission change?

5. Explore boomer culture. They're the real heroes, taking risks in space without Vulcan help and without fast and well-armed ships. It can't be hard to come up with more than one story about them. Are they agitating for warp 5 tech to be made available to civilians? Do they see Starfleet as a threat, an impediment, a protector? Are they starting their own colonies, building their own space stations?

6. GIVE TRAVIS MAYWEATHER SOMETHING TO DO! He's got more space experience than the rest of the regulars. There must be situations in which he could offer useful advice or a different perspective. He'd certainly be handy in more boomer stories.

7. Finish the Suliban/temporal cold war quickly. It's produced some good episodes, but, as with the X-Files and its mythology episodes, the importance of it all fades to insignificance when you go back to weeks of business as usual without even thinking about this threat to your existence.

8. Don't try to recreate the TOS Kirk-Spock-McCoy dynamic. Archer, T'Pol, and Tucker can't pull it off. Their characters just aren't as well defined, and the acting isn't as strong. Try to develop an ensemble feel. Bring in more regulars if necessary. (Bring back Ensign Elizabeth Cutler, for a start.)

In short, Enterprise needs to do stories that only Enterprise can do, just as DS9 did stories that only DS9 could do.

[REG]

Originally posted by Snake_Plissken
Now, IIRC, Berman was handpicked by GR to be his sucessor. Berman was handed active control of TNG around the time of TNG's 3rd season, when GR's deteriorating health prevented him from actively supervising TNG. Would a lot if people agree that TNG became really good starting with season 3? The early 90's was when ST was at its most popular point ever, with the fresh success of ST6 and the ongoing popularity of TNG. Now, I think that the "power" behind ST6 was Leonard Nimoy but up until the end of TNG (1994) Berman hadn't screwed up.

IIRC, it was Paramount that pressured GR to pick Rick Berman. I would be interested who were the other choices.

Nevertheless, Rick Berman was a good choice at the time.

Then ST:Generations came. Ok, it was a mediocre movie, but still watchable and it made a good amount of money. In the meantime we had DS9- the first 2 seasons were bad, but it got interesting with the Dominion threat. There are rumors that he copied B5, but even then, many feel a lot of DS9 episodes were at least as good, if not better, than many TNG episodes. The success of DS9 endured until 1999.

IMHO, the first two season of DS9 were not bad. I was skeptical about spotlighting a lengthy war for DS9. But with the right people like Ira Steven Behr and Ron D. Moore, it managed to tell the stories and not just the war but other events surrounding the stations in that timeline.

Again, in the meantime, we had Voyager. I think this is where Berman and co really started to get major flack. But then in 1996, we got ST: First Contact which is widely regarded as one of the best in the series, and it also got wide critical acclaim and it also did a lot of money.

Basically, they got a very good character story to film FC, that it overshadows some questionable elements like the casting of Cochrane.

So until that point (late 90's) one could argue that he did a fair job at helming ST in general.

I concur ... up until this point.

It seems to me however that most of the criticism directed towards him came during that timeframe. In the late 90's (98-99) was the period when DS9 was ended, Voyager was the only ST on TV, and we got ST: Insurrection at the theatres. Then onwards on, the criticism got worse with the end of Voyager, the arrival of Enterprise and lately with the huge fiasco that Nemesis was.

Berman chose Brannon Braga to replace the departing Jeri Taylor and Michael Piller as producer of VOY. Braga then cast Jeri Ryan as the Borg Babe crewmember Seven of Nine, in which he began a relationship following her divorce.

When DS9 ended, Braga asked his one-time friend Ron D. Moore to join the VOY writing staff. Ron stayed there briefly but left before the first episode of the season started airing, citing a very iron-fisted leadership and hostile working environment (he mentioned this in a four-part interview in Cinescape).

Braga have comment time and time again that he view continuity as a crutch and would rather ignore them. He even accused longtime fans like us as "continuity pornographers." While he ignores the longtime fans, he began to attract new fans with a bit more sex appeal, even cast a professional wrestler to appeal the other UPN audience (fans of WWE Smackdown!), which is growing larger than VOY audience.

My personal take on it is that he did a fair job for a good while, but lately (the last couple of years) he and his gang seem to have lost his (their) way...

care to comment??

I won't ignore his past accomplishments. But I cannot ignore his recent endeavors. When an employees who once did well in his youth started to slack off in the company after ten years or so and not producing any positive contribution to the company's current status, perhaps it is better to find someone else.

[C5]

You know, I tend to concur with Styro here that Star Trek may be suffering from what I call the Expert sydrome (you know, like going to a concert with a specialist of this type of music who painstakingly details every minor mistake the performers do and thus completely spoils the show for you).
The fan base has grown a lot since the 80s thanks to TNG's success, and this increase has been accompanied by a a lot of different interpretations of the ST universe, what it should be, and what is nice in the series.
Now, we've reached a point where so many people like ST for so many different reasons that, no matter what a series or episode concept is, you'll find a consequent number of fans who won't like it (either it doesn't fit their image of Trek, or a point that's very important to them is not taken into consideration, or something else that irks them), and since the naysayers are always the loudest, this gives a bad image of the show and may discourage people who felt merely ambivalent about it.
Maybe also long-term fans are not entirely objective as far as ST is concerned. For instance, I don't know Star Trek for a long time (6 years ago I thought it was some sort of series clone of Star Wars, wich BTW is rather ironic since I didn't know SW either - and still do, more or less), and so far enjoyed every series I've watched (well a bit less for TOS since it's rather hard to completely ignore the cheesy effects, especially when you just watched a DS9 episode from the last seasons). Of course, there are some episodes I loathe, series and characters I like better than others, but on the overall I'm just happy to watch some Trek.

That being said, I also agree that ENT second season is a bit disappointing. I mean, I recently saw Cold Front (yeah, I'm a bit late), and I vaguely know what the second season's episodes have been about so far; hey, why do they readapt old TNG or DS9 episodes instead of focusing on this interesting Temporal Cold War ?
Then again, TNG's first two seasons were quite bad, and DS9's had almost nothing to do with the rest of the series (no Emissary thing, no Dominion, no war...)

[REG]

Originally posted by C5

DS9's had almost nothing to do with the rest of the series (no Emissary thing, no Dominion, no war...)

I beg to differ.