Idea help needed? Trek Experts wanted! :)

[Dan Gurden]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Robbert Raets:

Depends on wether the clone did develop sentience and a personality. If he/she is just an 'empty' body, it wouldn't matter.
</font>

To be an empty body would require an inactive brain... Which would nullify the whoile point of putting the Katra into the clone, as the body would be dead...

Besides you have the 5 minute adventure that massages everyones egos as to how clever they are or the plot that challenges a characters beliefs and affirms their place in society...




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DanG.

"Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."

http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

[Robbert Raets]

O.K., never mind.

[Captain Zymmer]

I have to say I gave thought to the Vulcan Katra taking over the Betazoid bdy and mind, but it felt too Rogue/Ms. Marvel to me

As for the body, if they do manage to transporter create one it will be brain dead and requier life-support to keep alive. That is the easy part.

The hard part is convincing Starfleet, the Vulcans and their own sense of Morals that this is an ethical or acceptable course of action.

If they do they will have success, but the memory of what they have done will stay with them for a very, very long time.

In a perfect world they can save the counselor and rehabilitate her down the road. They can then save T'Cel (return her Katra), who in turn could possibly help to heal her husband's mind (which was destoyed by the evil cousellor). Everyone wins and they are happy at the end of the day...in a perfect world.

Not sure what is going to happen, a lot of it will be based on what theyt hink and do and how they act, but ultimately this is sci-fi and I like a ood sci-fi romp

Not everyone's cup of tea I know, but if they think it through and manage to pull it off, I will not punish my players for taking an interesting and mature approach to their situation. This will not be a 5 minute ego stroke (thanks for that term Dan, I love it )

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Captain Zymmer
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[USS Intrepid]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Captain Zymmer:
I have to say I gave thought to the Vulcan Katra taking over the Betazoid bdy and mind, but it felt too Rogue/Ms. Marvel to me

</font>

Personally, I still like the idea of joining the two personalitites in one body. That would be an interesting character to role play.

I'm also not sure a brain dead body would be much use. By extension, if it is brain dead, there must be some organic damage to the brain, and it is thus useless. Brain damage will make the body useless for your purposes. If the body requires life support to live, it's still going to be brain dead after you put the katra in it. The condition you describe is someone who has suffered damage to the brain stem, which regulates autonomic function. Which is crucial to living.

Conversely even if you transporter clone a body that doesn't have her memories, the brain must be living, and thus the clone is a new entity, and aware. And that's assuming you could actually alter her transporter trace to wipe the clones mind in the first place. There is no precedent for doing that sort of modification to a transporter trace. Correcting genetic damage, yes. But that's far simpler (technically) than altering memory. And even if you could, the chances of it working first time would not be good. You might have to have several goes, if their skill rolls don't make it. Which would lead to a few 'failed' clones too. Which could be really gross, and perhaps make them rethink their plan. And also raises a lot of different legal and ethical issues too. Starfleet Command would not look favourably on that sort of experimentation. And you PCs could look forward to a long term in rehabilitation, or at least dishonourable discharge.

Oh, I just reread your first post. You couldn't transporter clone her using a tissue sample. You'd need to have a her last transporter trace as well. Which shouldn't be a problem. Of course, you wouldn't need the tissue sample if you had the trace. But you would need an appropriate supply of organic matter, or even another body, to 'clone' into the new body. You're not really talking about cloning. You're talking about replicating, and for that you need a supply of 'raw material'.

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Captain Daniel Hunter
CO NCC-74600, U.S.S. Intrepid
Star Trek: Intrepid


[This message has been edited by USS Intrepid (edited 08-19-2001).]

[Captain Zymmer]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by USS Intrepid:
Personally, I still like the idea of joining the two personalitites in one body. That would be an interesting character to role play.</font>

Yeah but this is an NPC so I am not too worried about the roleplaying oportunities in this case.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I'm also not sure a brain dead body would be much use. By extension, if it is brain dead, there must be some organic damage to the brain, and it is thus useless. Brain damage will make the body useless for your purposes. If the body requires life support to live, it's still going to be brain dead after you put the katra in it. The condition you describe is someone who has suffered damage to the brain stem, which regulates autonomic function. Which is crucial to living.

</font>

Actually this is Star Trek and a transporter can do anything the writers need it to do.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Conversely even if you transporter clone a body that doesn't have her memories, the brain must be living, and thus the clone is a new entity, and aware. And that's assuming you could actually alter her transporter trace to wipe the clones mind in the first place. There is no precedent for doing that sort of modification to a transporter trace. Correcting genetic damage, yes. But that's far simpler (technically) than altering memory. And even if you could, the chances of it working first time would not be good. You might have to have several goes, if their skill rolls don't make it. Which would lead to a few 'failed' clones too. Which could be really gross, and perhaps make them rethink their plan. And also raises a lot of different legal and ethical issues too. Starfleet Command would not look favourably on that sort of experimentation. And you PCs could look forward to a long term in rehabilitation, or at least dishonourable discharge.

</font>

Again you are approaching this like there are hard & fast rules to this technology. The technology does whatever the writers need it to do. If I need it to make a clone body then it will make a clone body, etc... I was more interested in the precedent set in TNG (can't remember the episode) and the moral ramifications and why Star Trekk III is the only movie where something like this can happen

I appreciate the tech talk, but like I said I treat my campaign like a TV show, the tech does what I want it to do, not the other way around.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Oh, I just reread your first post. You couldn't transporter clone her using a tissue sample. You'd need to have a her last transporter trace as well. Which shouldn't be a problem. Of course, you wouldn't need the tissue sample if you had the trace. But you would need an appropriate supply of organic matter, or even another body, to 'clone' into the new body. You're not really talking about cloning. You're talking about replicating, and for that you need a supply of 'raw material'.

</font>

Again this is a ficitious technology, and if they can remake Dr. Platski or Captain Janeway from a strand of hair, then the sky is the limit.

Not trying to bust your chops man, I am really not. I just find it funny that people are telling what a transporter can and cannot do...to bizarre.

Thanks for the input everyone, but I have now made my decisison, and based on it most of you wouldn't want to play in my game anyways

I don't see the problem here, this is Star Trek at it's level best. The moral arguement, the using technology to assist in a godlike act, the political parties involved, the regulations of their own Starfleet. Now I don't claim that this is the best Star Trek style ever, but it is in the vien. I much prefer TOS and Movie Gen, that much is obvious. In those eras this much debate over the topic wouldn't have occured. TOS was an action first, consequences second evironment. In TNG everything must be debated and harranged.

Sci-Fi vs Melodrama I guess.

Sorry...just found myself venting there...I apologize completely.

Thanks everyone, I really do appreciate your help.

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Captain Zymmer
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Visit Star Trek:Lexington at;
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[This message has been edited by Captain Zymmer (edited 08-19-2001).]

[USS Intrepid]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Captain Zymmer:
Again this is a ficitious technology, and if they can remake Dr. Platski or Captain Janeway from a strand of hair, then the sky is the limit.

Not trying to bust your chops man, I am really not. I just find it funny that people are telling what a transporter can and cannot do...to bizarre.

Thanks for the input everyone, but I have now made my decisison, and based on it most of you wouldn't want to play in my game anyways

I don't see the problem here, this is Star Trek at it's level best. The moral arguement, the using technology to assist in a godlike act, the political parties involved, the regulations of their own Starfleet. Now I don't claim that this is the best Star Trek style ever, but it is in the vien. I much prefer TOS and Movie Gen, that much is obvious. In those eras this much debate over the topic wouldn't have occured. TOS was an action first, consequences second evironment. In TNG everything must be debated and harranged.

Sci-Fi vs Melodrama I guess.

Sorry...just found myself venting there...I apologize completely.

Thanks everyone, I really do appreciate your help.

</font>

Since you're the resident TNG-hater, I'll forgive you for not getting your episodes facts right They did not remake Pulaski from a strand of hair. They used the hair to determine her original, unaltered DNA sequence. They then used that sequence to as a template, and the transporter as an advanced gene sequencer, to repair the genetic damage. The never created a new body. It was the same Pulaski.

As far as what can be done with the technology, the capabilities of it is fairly well established, as the the basic theory behind it. And yes, I am aware it's made up theory, it's not real.

Sure the transporter can make a copy of someone's body, but as with a replicator you will need the raw materials. And it's not cloning, it's replication. Cloning would be growing a body from a sample of genetic material. The transporter has NEVER been shown to be able to do that. You might actually want to read the technical info on transporters that's in the TNG tech manual.

But hey, it's your game, you can (and should) do what you want, and what works for your players. No one is TRYING to change your mind, we were just discussing the issue, like you asked. You asked for feedback and discussion, so I don't see what's so funny about you getting it.

Besides, as far as lack of debate in TOS, well I strongly disagree. Kirk, Spock and McCoy debated and argued issues all the time. I was a fan of the characters, and the issues way before the action. Perhaps I grew up with a different TOS than you did? However, as a fan of both TOS and TNG, I won't bother getting further into an off topic discussion about it.

Sci Fi vs Melodrama? Excuse me, no offense, but have you you actually read any real sci fi?????????? This sort of debate is exactly what sci fi is about. Clark, Asimov, Bradbury. Whole novels are built around this sort of debate. It's also good role playing material, but obviously it's not going to be every gamers cup of tea. For me, the whole fun of actually playing the charatcer is getting inside his head and playing out these sort of scenarios. Some of the briefing/negotiation sessions in our games have lasted hours debating issues like this, and hammering out agreements between warring factions. Actually role playing out the situation, rather than coming up with a quick dice roll fix.

OK, so now who's venting

We now return to our scheduled programming.......

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Captain Daniel Hunter
CO NCC-74600, U.S.S. Intrepid
Star Trek: Intrepid


[This message has been edited by USS Intrepid (edited 08-19-2001).]

[Captain Zymmer]

OKay I apologize. I have been on edge this weekend and very snappy.

Sorry about that.

Okay back to our topic.


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Captain Zymmer
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[Captain Zymmer]

Okay how about this;

The tansporter can beused to create a duplicate DNA/Transporter Pattern. It is beamed into a statsis pod, thereby never becoming aware. The Katra could then be put into that body no?

And wouldn't Genesis Spock have been murdered when his Katra was returned in the Fal Tor Pan?



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Captain Zymmer
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[Antonsb214]

Sentience is a touchy issue. Are we born with it? Or is it something we learn? If you look at the documented cases of children being raised by wolves in India (yes it did actually happen), attempts at rehabilitating the children were less than successful. Is there a crucial age that if we do not learn to reason, we never will? As a Christian I believe that everyone has a soul (even politicians, well... maybe lawyers) ;-) so if you made a clone, a soul would be there.
Now for Star Trek it just seems more dramatic to be able to bring a major character back to life. In Spock's case the Katra was his "essense" and the word "soul" was used as the closest human analogue. Someone could argue that his reborn body did not have a "soul" or "katra" because his original katra was still in Dr. McCoy i.e. still on this plane of existense. If your characters plan to clone a new body, you could, but you may run into the same problems as characters in "The Sixth Day" did, "That's the third time I've been killed today, and I'm getting mad!" So you either have to make this clonine process so difficult and or risky that you do not want to have to go through this more than once. But these questions could make for interesting role playing opportunities. There could be a hearing, something like the hearing on Data's rights as a sentient being. Does the Katra have rights to the Body over the soul of the section 31 agent. This could be an interesting trial, sort of like "Defending Your Life".

Judge:"So why should we let you back into that body?"
Just an idea.

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"Retreat?! Hell, we just got here!"

[This message has been edited by Antonsb214 (edited 08-19-2001).]

[Captain Zymmer]

Hmmmm....I like the way you think there my man...a very interesting take on the idea...I like the trial idea as well

So how about this...

They make the body and get the Katra back...they then convince the Vulcans to perfom the Fal Tor Pan and she is rejoined.

Starfleet gets a bit skittish at this and it results in the UFP Council instituting a Federationwide ban on Cloning, etc...

A trial is had and they are forced to defend their actions as necessary and proper...

Could make for an interesting bite in the ass a few sessions down the road

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Captain Zymmer
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Visit Star Trek:Lexington at;
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[This message has been edited by Captain Zymmer (edited 08-19-2001).]

[Antonsb214]

Well, the Benzites might not fully endorse a cloning ban since it's the way they "reproduce." They may ban cloning for the purpose of "harvesting" the organs or the entire body. As for the hearing and or trial you could either bring in a JAG NPC or have the players prepare their own defense. A hearing of this import you would expect to take place on Earth. The prosecutor could be someone from the PC's histories, this could be an opportunity to bring in rivals and contacts or old friends. They could even roleplay a little shoreleave unless they are in custody. This could turn into a little miniseries. Not just about cloning and katras (gotta love that alliteration) but about what it means to exist and what "life" is and what is the being, the body or the mind? The philosophical arguments could make your head hurt.
An investigation into Section 31 might also be in order. I mean those guys are really getting on my nerves. I know we lost half of our personnel during the war but there still are things that you just don't do. Do we or should we stoop to underhanded methods to achieve our security. It like being on a waterslide, once you start it's hard to stop. After awhile you're able to convince yourself that you can live with it. For all intents and purposes Section 31 is just as bad as the Obsidian Order or the Tal Shiar. The state of the Federation after the Dominion War is a great time for "Hawks" to take control of policy. Maybe Section 31 might actually become an official branch of Starfleet Intelligence?

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"Retreat?! Hell, we just got here!"

[Captain Zymmer]

Man my players are gonna hate you

I love this stuff...and the idea of Section 31 going legit...I really love that

More! More!

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Captain Zymmer
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Visit Star Trek:Lexington at;
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[USS Intrepid]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Captain Zymmer:


And wouldn't Genesis Spock have been murdered when his Katra was returned in the Fal Tor Pan?

</font>

Yes he would have been....... Which is an interesting issue in itself. Or perhaps genesis Spock and original Spock's Katra became merged somehow.

I suppose it depends on what the katra is. If it's just memories then it probably isn't an issue, since all you're doing is downloading infomration into the brain. if it's 'more' then it's certainly a trickier issue.



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Captain Daniel Hunter
CO NCC-74600, U.S.S. Intrepid
Star Trek: Intrepid

[Dan Gurden]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Captain Zymmer:

And wouldn't Genesis Spock have been murdered when his Katra was returned in the Fal Tor Pan?
</font>

In my opinion, a non-issue here, the body was not a cloned body, but Spock himself, sure he died, but Genesis revived and revitalised the body...

So it was simply returning the Katra to the body it belonged too.

But you are right it is a touchy issue that would be used in legal wrnaglings.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Antonsb214:
Well, the Benzites might not fully endorse a cloning ban since it's the way they "reproduce." They may ban cloning for the purpose of "harvesting" the organs or the entire body. </font>

Thing is, what Aslan wants is not 'Harvesting', but will offer his players a source of immortality, even if they die... As was pointed out with the sixth day analagy. Sure this time is an NPC, but the next? and the one after that?

The legal viewpoint would indeed make for good adventures, but will change the entire course of the games future. As you said Aslan it will bite them in the ass, but it could bite you too...

Think about it.

For example;
The court votes that cloning is illegal, and in the same leage as Genetic engineering.

Effect; The Benzite population either has to break from the Federation or find a new method of reproduction or risk eventual extinction, and they have but a single generation to do it. Its possible that this would cause a schism in the Federation with member worlds splitting off rather than have their cultures altered by the Federation...

OK, thats a little extreme. So how about;

The Federation council decides that cloning is illegal, but makes several clauses to enable particular cases to be OK.

The Effect; So many loopholes that it may as well not be illegal... Cloning becomes commonplace, but underground, until a legal loophole is found that proves the Federation law ineffectual in the face of IDIC.

Still a little extreme (so Im an extremist? )

Lastly; The Federation council realises that any attempt to ban cloning is going to effect the long lasting stability of the Federation, concerning the future of any species that, like the Benzites, uses cloning as a form of reproduction (from the makeup notes this also includes Arcturian 'clones')
http://eas2.exit.mytoday.de/artoftre...-clone-tmp.jpg
With this judgement there is likely to be a 'no harvesting' clause, but this gives open season to immortality of the characters as nobody needs die for long.

Stupid enough to get yourself shot? Clone another body, Died of old age? Clone a younger body...

After the 4th or 5th time, the Vulcans are likely to twig that their Katra techniques are being abused, leding weight to the isolationists Movements arguements...

Unfortunatly, this situation is proving one of my points. Involve Section 31 and the plot becomes uneccesarily unweildy, it has gone from a simple revive a lost NPC to a social debate on cloning, through to a legal definition with the possibility to destroy the unified Federation...

However if you REALLY want to know the Federation view of clones (and this applies to mindless clones growing in a tank too, as they have the capability of being sentient) see DS9 'A Man Alone' which covers the legal standing of a clone in the Trek universe.

Well, you did ask for our opinions?


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DanG.

"Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."

http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

[Captain Zymmer]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dan Gurden:
Thing is, what Aslan wants is not 'Harvesting', but will offer his players a source of immortality, even if they die... As was pointed out with the sixth day analagy. Sure this time is an NPC, but the next? and the one after that?</font>

None of my players are Vulcans and cannot transfer their Katra...I would be a hard pressed Vulcan who would teach that technique to a nonVulcan, IMHO.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The legal viewpoint would indeed make for good adventures, but will change the entire course of the games future. As you said Aslan it will bite them in the ass, but it could bite you too...

Think about it.

</font>

Okay you have my attention

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">For example;
The court votes that cloning is illegal, and in the same leage as Genetic engineering.

Effect; The Benzite population either has to break from the Federation or find a new method of reproduction or risk eventual extinction, and they have but a single generation to do it. Its possible that this would cause a schism in the Federation with member worlds splitting off rather than have their cultures altered by the Federation...

OK, thats a little extreme.

</font>

Agreed, a little extreme.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> So how about;

The Federation council decides that cloning is illegal, but makes several clauses to enable particular cases to be OK.

The Effect; So many loopholes that it may as well not be illegal... Cloning becomes commonplace, but underground, until a legal loophole is found that proves the Federation law ineffectual in the face of IDIC.

Still a little extreme (so Im an extremist? )

</font>

Yes you are

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Lastly; The Federation council realises that any attempt to ban cloning is going to effect the long lasting stability of the Federation, concerning the future of any species that, like the Benzites, uses cloning as a form of reproduction (from the makeup notes this also includes Arcturian 'clones')
http://eas2.exit.mytoday.de/artoftre...-clone-tmp.jpg
With this judgement there is likely to be a 'no harvesting' clause, but this gives open season to immortality of the characters as nobody needs die for long.

Stupid enough to get yourself shot? Clone another body, Died of old age? Clone a younger body...

After the 4th or 5th time, the Vulcans are likely to twig that their Katra techniques are being abused, leding weight to the isolationists Movements arguements...

</font>

Again how are these people learning the Vulcan technique that allows them to transfer their Katra? Maybe I am missing something, but the only people who could become imortal would be the Vulcans. Now I have already decided that in their own culture there would be limits already imposed that would prevent this (perhaos in the past the Fal Tor Pan was abused by more primitive Vulcans, and when Surak took leadership it was abanndoned?)

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Unfortunatly, this situation is proving one of my points. Involve Section 31 and the plot becomes uneccesarily unweildy, it has gone from a simple revive a lost NPC to a social debate on cloning, through to a legal definition with the possibility to destroy the unified Federation...

</font>

Agreed, but the situation is what it is in my game, not much I can do now except try and clean up the mess...also my players are a bit more mature than to use the 6th Day analogy, simply becuase they understand the difference between being able to do something and actually doing it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">However if you REALLY want to know the Federation view of clones (and this applies to mindless clones growing in a tank too, as they have the capability of being sentient) see DS9 'A Man Alone' which covers the legal standing of a clone in the Trek universe.

</font>

Not framilier with this episode. Can you tell more?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Well, you did ask for our opinions?

</font>

Agreed. And I am getting them But my earlier frustration was that everyone told me how it couldn't be done, only one guy really made an effort to show how it could be done.....The old analagy "easier to destroy than build" comes to mind.

Still as I have said, you have all given me things to think about

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Captain Zymmer
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