Idea help needed? Trek Experts wanted! :)

[Captain Zymmer]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by USS Intrepid:
Yes he would have been....... Which is an interesting issue in itself. Or perhaps genesis Spock and original Spock's Katra became merged somehow.

I suppose it depends on what the katra is. If it's just memories then it probably isn't an issue, since all you're doing is downloading infomration into the brain. if it's 'more' then it's certainly a trickier issue.</font>

And this I think exemplifies the whole "Spirituality Vs Science" arguement of Star Trek. Is the Katra a soul or is it simply a memory dump? If it is a memory dump, no harm, no foul...if it is a soul, same thing applies, since a cloned body would be without soul...according to some.



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Captain Zymmer
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Visit Star Trek:Lexington at;
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[Dan Gurden]

OK, the DS9 episode 'A Man Alone', its a sesaon 1 DS9 so I dont think spoilers are needed, if anyone else does... Stop Reading here.

http://www.startrek.com/library/epis...l.asp?ID=68088
- Theres some pics at the StarTrek.com website linked above.

Synopsis:

Security Chief Odo's character is questioned when he is implicated in the murder of a shady Bajoran.

The adjustment period aboard Deep Space Nine continues as transplants from across the galaxy attempt to come to terms with their new life and each other. O'Brien's wife Keiko misses the U.S.S Enterprise and her career as a botanist. Sisko's son, Jake, plagued by loneliness, eases his boredom by befriending a rowdy Ferengi boy named Nog. Meanwhile, Odo is faced with a more pressing problem when he spies Ibudan, a Bajoran he once arrested for murder, gambling in Quark's. He attempts to rid the station of the criminal, first by ordering him to leave and later by asking Sisko to throw him off the station, but neither effort proves successful. However, Odo soon gets his wish despite this lack of cooperation when Ibudan is found stabbed to death in a Holosuite.

Sisko orders an investigation of the killing, only to find his son Jake is also in trouble for playing pranks around the station with Nog. Strangely, this awkward situation between father and son creates an opportunity for Keiko, who volunteers to supervise the children of Deep Space Nine by starting a school. Later, Odo becomes the prime suspect in the murder investigation when mounting evidence, including the fact that the killer was most likely a shape-shifter, points to him.

Deep Space Nine's residents soon become suspicious of Odo, and although many officers believe their colleague's claims of innocence, Sisko relieves him of duty as Chief of Security. Keiko also faces trouble in her own endeavors when members of the diverse space station community resist the idea of sending their children to a Federation school. While she tries to recruit students, Bashir works to prove Odo's innocence, experimenting with DNA fragments that were found in the dead Bajoran's Holosuite.

Discouraged by the public's response to her school, Keiko considers abandoning her plans but is encouraged to press on by her husband. Meanwhile, Odo finds himself ostracized by the public, as angry residents vandalize his office and threaten his well-being. Bashir continues his investigation of the DNA patterns found in Ibudan's Holosuite, hoping to solve the mystery by causing them to replicate into the form of the being it belongs to.

Responding to the tension aboard ship, Sisko and Kira order more security to protect Odo. As they confront an angry mob's demand for justice, Bashir provides a more definite solution to Odo's problem when he reveals the result of his experiment. The murdered man was not Ibudan, but a clone he created and killed in order to frame Odo for his murder. His rank restored, Odo soon finds the real Ibudan aboard his ship, and since murdering a clone is still a crime, he is finally able to arrest his man.

Me again;
Its also interesting to watch as Bashier and Dax talk about the clone they are growing from the cells left over from the initial clone. And the way they talk about it, even as a humanoid lump of Protoplasm;
"Eventually he will wake and take his place as a productive member of society."
and;
"Killing your own clone is still murder."
These sentences and their easy going attitude to simply growing the clone to find out what/who it was show that cloning is an accepted procedure, and not heavily restricted (no permission was required, but it was part of the murder investigation... So procedure may be different). It also specifically states that sped grown clones tend to have defective genetic markers that easily identy them as clones and can even lead to genetic defects in the body leading to early death (say about 20 minutes or so)...

Hope that helps.

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DanG.

"Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."

http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

[USS Intrepid]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Captain Zymmer:
And this I think exemplifies the whole "Spirituality Vs Science" arguement of Star Trek. Is the Katra a soul or is it simply a memory dump? If it is a memory dump, no harm, no foul...if it is a soul, same thing applies, since a cloned body would be without soul...according to some.

</font>

Yes that is indeed the heart of the issue. And an extrememly interesting issue at that.

I'd agree with much of what Dan has said above. Although I'd disagree wthat the Vulcan katra techniques would be needed. There have been a couple of episodes (two spring to mind) that show the technology exists to transfer a person's consciousness to a new body exists. Unfortunately I can't remember the names of the 2 epsodes I recall at the moment. There was the second season TNG with Ira Graves, and the first season DS9 where an alien criminal transfers his consciousness to Dr Bashir.

I can just imagine the role playing possibilities that could play themselves out while your characters discuss this. Reminds me of the court martial we ran a while back.

Just also wanted to add, I don't think anybody has been trying t otell you it can't be done. They (and I) have been trying to suggest how it could be done, within the bounds of the 'known' limits of Federation science and technology.

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Captain Daniel Hunter
CO NCC-74600, U.S.S. Intrepid
Star Trek: Intrepid

[USS Intrepid]

An idea springs to mind. One that would allow you to use this technique, but also to cut the Vulcans entirely out of the picture. Theoretically, your PCs could do this without anyone knowing exactly what they've done.

How about if you use the tissue sample to establish T'Cel's genetic sequence. You then take the 31 Operative, and a large amount of undifferentiated tissue (cloned from the sample) and put them in the transporter. Using detailed sensor scans, and the most recent transporter trace of T'Cel you can find dematerialise them all, and then use the TRANSPORTER to separate the katra from the 31 operative and put it back in the new body that the transporter will transform the mass of tissue into. This would get around the whole 'murder' debate, and is theoretically possible within in the limits of the technology as we've seen it. The whole 'surgical' procedure would take place in the transporter buffer. And I'd still recommend you read the description of transporter tech in the TNG tech manual, to help get your description of the procedure to sound suitably 'tecchie'.

And you crew could do it on the QT. Of course, when T'Cel turns up again, they'd have to answer some awkward questions, but then that in itself could be an interesting plot turn.

Just a thought.

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Captain Daniel Hunter
CO NCC-74600, U.S.S. Intrepid
Star Trek: Intrepid


[This message has been edited by USS Intrepid (edited 08-20-2001).]

[Antonsb214]

I believe the Benzites are the only race allowed to clone and or perform genetic manipulation in the Federation. I believe some cloning tech is used by Starfleet Medical for organs or limbs but nothing like having a "spare" body around.
Now, the transfer of consciousness has been done since TOS, I believe the episode "Turnabout Intruder" had a frestrated female scientist switching bodies with Kirk, and there was another episode when a duplicate "Kirk" was made. So this tech has been around for awhile.
Now for my episode ideas, hold the hearing/trial at Starfleet HQ, either use a photo from before the Breen attack or draw up a new one. Personnel will be spread thin with the 50% or more casaulties Starfleet suffered during the war, it will take at least a decade to bring the officer corps up to strength without lowering standards. Maybe some sort of Starfleet ROTC will be started. You will see many older "retired officers in uniform (remember McCoy in TMP, he was "activated" for the mission by Kirk) being brought in from the "active reserve". Some of these officers will be Cardassian War vets. There may be a movement to militarize Starfleet, turning from a Coast Guard like organization into a Navy ready to fight the "Next War". Some older ships will probably disappear from the fleet, being used for scrap to help rebuild damaged worlds and cities. With half of its ships destroyed, the Fleet will want better ships than spaceframes older than the senior officers on board. So there might be a lot of Defiant-class and Sabre-class ships flying because of there small crew requirements. Smaller more capable (warlike) ships may be the order of the day. The huge Galaxy and Sovereign-class ships may cease production, at least until the infrastructure and or resources are available. This will be the atmosphere on Earth after the war. Even with Trek tech it will take years to rebuild the cities destroyed in the Breen attack. The Federation is not the stellar utopia it was before the war. It may be a little darker or edgier than what we're used to.
Into this lovely setting the PC's come with their trial, it will probably be in all the "papers". This trial cold be used by the "Hawks" and "Doves" on the Federation council to proves their position is the one needed in these "dark times." The "Hawks" may tout the PC's as heroes of the Federation, who "did what was needed" to rescue a friend. The Doves will stress the actions of Section 31 who are "threatening the very ideals on which the Federation is founded." I suppose a "Hawk"(wants a stronger military) would be human or Andorian, or Tellarite. A Dove(let's go back to being explorers) would be Tellartie (they love a good argument), or Vulcan. The whole cloning "is it right or wrong" argument may get lost in the politics, but that's how things work.
Maybe Section 31 will come gunning for the PC's, cant' have any witnesses now can we?

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"Retreat?! Hell, we just got here!"

[This message has been edited by Antonsb214 (edited 08-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Antonsb214 (edited 08-20-2001).]

[Capt.Hunter]

As to non-Vulcans transmitting their personalities into cloned bodies, that guy Vantika was able to do it in DS9's "The Passenger" when he took over Bashir. Bashir even stated during the investigation that the closest thing he'd seen to the transference method was "synaptic pattern displacement, but I've never heard of that in a non-Vulcan". Of course, Vantika only had partial control over Bashir's body, but a clone without a developed sentience wouldn't pose such problems. Remember, the clone in "A Man Alone" grew to maturity within about a week. I'd guess not much of a sentience could develop in that timeframe.

Actually, thanks to bad story fixes on TNG (it's no more guilty on this than the other series though), the Federation should already be able to reverse aging, so why bother going the cloning route? In the ep "Rascals", Picard and co. are reduced to children when the transporter can't lock on to certain molecules in their bodies that are markers of aging. So Crusher looks up their original gene sequences, inputs them into the transporter, beams 'em out and back in again and "kazam!", they're back to normal with a tagline by Picard. So why can't you duplicate the conditions of the original accident to regress people to a younger state? Troi mentioned that maybe Picard and the others might eventually regress mentally as well, but the explanation of the rejuvenation doesn't sound like it would logically cause that.

Hell, in a few years they could probably reinvent Noonian Soong's "synaptic scanner" and start transferring peoples' neural patterns into Soong-type androids...

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"Spatial anomalies, energy beings, telepathic echoes. You know, sometimes I really miss the Dominion War. At least then all we had to worry about was where the next polaron beam was coming from...": Capt.Hunter, USS Tempest

[USS Intrepid]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Antonsb214:
Now, the transfer of consciousness has been done since TOS, I believe the episode "Turnabout Intruder" had a frestrated female scientist switching bodies with Kirk, and there was another episode when a duplicate "Kirk" was made.
</font>

I thought of those episodes, although both of those instances were example of alien technology, not Federation. Fair point though. There's no reason that someone couldn't have refined the technology from Camus 2.

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Captain Daniel Hunter
CO NCC-74600, U.S.S. Intrepid
Star Trek: Intrepid

[Captain Zymmer]

Thanks for the great ideas guys!

I would avoid the whole "Use the tansporter to save the day" so completely. I dfon't mind using it to make the replicant (It wasn't called killing, but simply retirement) but I still want them to find a way to convince a Vulcan, any Vulcan to help them do this.

Now I had a wacky idea reading all of this stuff.

Other than the orginal crew, who else was present at the Fal Tor Pan? Why Lt. Savikk of course.

Now I have been thinking about the whole Valeris as a Section 31 agent and then how Savikk would really hate her due to her betrayal of Capatin (now Ambassador) Spock.

So how about this for some weird continuity;

The players get approached by Savikk (who is watching this situation becuase the Counselor is a Section 31 op) and makes them the offer. "I will help you save T'Cel if you will help me track down and bring to justice Vaeris."

Might make for less universal outcry and the players would have a lot to answer for in the end as well

What do you guys think?

Anyway I can make this work?

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Captain Zymmer
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Visit Star Trek:Lexington at;
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[Diamond]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The players get approached by Savikk (who is watching this situation becuase the Counselor is a Section 31 op) and makes them the offer. "I will help you save T'Cel if you will help me track down and bring to justice Vaeris."</font>

I don't know about the whole cloning issue, but I LOVE that plot seed. Older, TNG-era Savikk using her own initiative to bring to justice Valeris for her (now several decade old) crimes.

I've written up Savikk's stats BTW. At least, her STIII-era ones.

[Captain Zymmer]

I would love to take a look at those Diamond...is there a link or could you pst them here?

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Captain Zymmer
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[Captain Zymmer]

Got 'em!

Now all I need is your Savikk and I am ready to go

Thanks Diamond, you are a champ!

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Captain Zymmer
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Visit Star Trek:Lexington at;
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[Antonsb214]

Saavik could actually want revenge. She is half-Romulan, depending on who you ask. Hey, what if Valeris was the head of a division of Section 31 if not the actual head of the organization? That would make bringing her down that much harder. She can make people disappear without a trace of DNA! If you wanted to stretch it, why not have Ambassador Spock along, heck even his child(by Savik, never sure if they decided whether it was male or female).

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"Retreat?! Hell, we just got here!"

[Diamond]

I will post them here on RPG-net... eventually. Sorry for the delay, but that's part of a half-completed larger project. I have already posted Valeris's STVI-era stats in another thread however.