Idea help needed? Trek Experts wanted! :)

[Captain Zymmer]

I am running a game and a bunch of sessions ago a Section 31 counsellor killed the Vulcan diplomatic officer and then mindwiped her human husband the XO.

Now they have learned that the Counsellor (in custody) is going insane. Why> becuase the Vulcan's Katra was forced into her at the moment of death.

Using a tissue sample of her from Starfleet Medical they want to get the Katra out and clone her a new body using the transporters (can't remember what episode I saw that in) and then convince the Vulcans to perform the Fal Tor Pan...

What do you think? Feedback? Input?



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Captain Zymmer
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Visit Star Trek:Lexington at;
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[Lancer]

I'd say mindwipe her, let the Vulcan take control of the body and just ask the Vulcan if he (she?) wants a cloned body or not.

I think that would be fitting for someone who just wiped her husbands brain herself.

[toadkiller]

I really doubt that the Vulcan's would be willing to bring someone "back to life" that way. I mean with Spock the new body was already there by a "natural" or at least accidental means. If Kirk had simply cloned a new Spock body from leftover skins cells (or whatever) they most likely would not have helped him. Simply taken the clone and educated it as a relative, but different person, of Spock's and put his katra whereever it is they put them. Otherwise Vulcans (or at least "important" ones would basically be immortal at this point as they'd always be making clones and restoring from backup tape as it where. Now that is an interesting (but not really novel) concept for a species, but I'd not have the Vulcans go there. However for your game they could always make an exception: special case, good of the many...

Do we have a canon description of what was supposed to happen with Spock's katra? I can't remember - I know Sarek wanted to do something with it.

TK

[Dan Gurden]

This brings up another point that I passed breifly in conversation with Aslan over ICQ.

What does happen to an unused Katra?

I am sure there was something in a book somewhere (of course I might have dreamed it all), that had katras captured and placed in some receptacle somewhere for eternal contemplation...

Like a weird version of ancestor worship, Vulcans could visit with their pre-desecors and gaim wisdom and guidance...

Thinking about it, it may have been one of the Early Peter David new-frontier books, so make of it what you will...

However this also brings to mind the souldhunters from B5, in which case a whole different state of being is possible, an eternity trapped inside this recepticle with no physical being... It doesn't matter about logic, sooner or later it would drive you insane, and that must be like an idea of Hell to a Vulcan... the loss of sanity and emotional control...

Theres an episode in here somewhere, I am sure...

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DanG.

"Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."

http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

[toadkiller]

There is something about that in a book - it refers to "the hall of ancient thought" or something like that. It wasn't New Frontiers as I haven't read them (or if it was that wasn't were it started) but it may have been David.

I have made vague references to such in my game, but it is mostly considered to be "Vulcan mythology". I play a somewhat more skeptical game concerning Vulcans with most "off-worlders" not really believing half of what they hear about their mystic side. Everything seen on screen (including Spock's return) is real - just for the most part the PC's don't know anything about it. I'd think eventually they'd go mad too.

TK

[Capt.Hunter]

The "memory receptacle" concept is hinted at in The Way of Kohlinar, when a Vulcan officer wants to try and consult the katra of a scientist ancestor of his about ways to deflect a cosmic string. There is no indication as to whether or not the katra remains conscious or is just a collection of memories (although the notes for the Kohlinaru monastery say that if the legends of katras stored from the ancient mindlords are true, then they will be mighty ticked off about what the monastery is currently used for...)

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"Spatial anomalies, energy beings, telepathic echoes. You know, sometimes I really miss the Dominion War. At least then all we had to worry about was where the next polaron beam was coming from...": Capt.Hunter, USS Tempest

[Kronok]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Captain Zymmer:
Using a tissue sample of her from Starfleet Medical they want to get the Katra out and clone her a new body using the transporters (can't remember what episode I saw that in) and then convince the Vulcans to perform the Fal Tor Pan...

What do you think? </font>

I think there is no may Starfleet will allow this. Cloning is, and shall always be, a big NO NO. The crime was unfortunate, but two wrongs do not make a right. Taking his body definitely goes against Federation philosophy too.

The Spock situation was unique because a body existed already. There may be some “Vulcan Artifact Container Thingy” which stores Katras. If you want to keep the Katra, make something like that exist. If not, got to Vulcan and let the Katra rest.

My TOO SENSE,

Kronok

[Anarchy Bob]

I think that another factor in the Spock thing was that it was slowly driving McCoy insane.

[Dan Gurden]

OK, so it was the Way of Kohlinar... I knew I had seen a B5 'SoulHunter' reference to the Katra somewhere... OK, time to look stuff up when I get home...

We can chat later Aslan.

As for cloning, oddly its not a big no no. The big no is Geentic Engineering, but not cloning, watch 'A Man Alone' the third DS9 episode.

The problem with this is that Trek Canon considers closnes to be sentient, no mindless clones here (probably their way of getting around the issue). The thing here is that a clone is considered a seperate individual.

And in the episode A man that kills his own clone is charged with murder, therefore the same would apply here. The Vulcans are likely to balk at this procedure, and the clone might well beg for asylum, wanting to develop more... mmmm, starting to sound like Tuvix here, you got a Janeway in your group?

All that said, with the current hoo-ha over cloning expect an 'Enterprise' episode (or even the rumours for ST: Nemesis) that the matter will be covered in greater detail.

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DanG.

"Hi, I'm Commander Troy McClure, you might remember me from other academy training holo-simulations as, Abandon Ship, the quickest way out, and I sense danger, 101 things you dont need a Betazoid to know..."

http://www.theventure.freeserve.co.uk

[Paul]

IMHO, the simplest, least offensive (to all parties involved) solution would be to get the counsellor to Vulcan and let the Vulcans remove the Katra. Then the coulsellor can be tried for one count of murder and one cout of...almost murder...without having to worrry about the imprisoned Vulcan.

You don't have to agree with me...YMMV.

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"...and more controversial than Oolon Colluphid's trilogy of philosophical blockbusters Where God went Wrong, Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes, and Who is this God Person Anyway?"
- The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams (dec.)

[Captain Zymmer]

Well you have all given me much to think about here...I will have to weigh these issues in my mind and determine certain NPC preconceptions and then see where the players go and if they can convince certain parties to assist them or not.

Still it is sci-fi and the outlandish is the best part of it

Thanks gang, as always you can be counted on for interesting takes and view points

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Captain Zymmer
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Visit Star Trek:Lexington at;
http://www.usslexington.net
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[The Tatterdemalion King]

IIRC the "hall of Ancient Thought" was in the Lost Years, a book that takes place between either 3rd season TOS – ST:TMP or ST:TMP - STII

[USS Intrepid]

I agree with what some of the others have said. If a clone is created, that clone would be a person in her own right. To put the murdered Vulcan's katra in a clone would be tantamount to murder.

However, how about having a fight between the Vulcan katra, and the Section 31 operative's consciousnesses, perhaps eventually allowing the vulcan to 'win' control of the body. You could eventually have a sort of split personality, or perhaps something almost like the entity you get when a Trill host and symbiont are joined. Perhaps if the two peronsalities 'join' the Section 31 operative might learn the error of his/her way, and end up working with your PCs against 31?

Just a thought

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Captain Daniel Hunter
CO NCC-74600, U.S.S. Intrepid
Star Trek: Intrepid

[This message has been edited by USS Intrepid (edited 08-18-2001).]

[Robbert Raets]

>To put the murdered Vulcan's katra in a clone would be tantamount to murder.

Depends on wether the clone did develop sentience and a personality. If he/she is just an 'empty' body, it wouldn't matter.

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Fate protects fools, little children, and ships named Enterprise.

[USS Intrepid]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Robbert Raets:
>To put the murdered Vulcan's katra in a clone would be tantamount to murder.

Depends on wether the clone did develop sentience and a personality. If he/she is just an 'empty' body, it wouldn't matter.

</font>

Simply being alive suggests a certain degree of sentience. Would you put someone else's katra in a newborn baby, because it's essentially the same thing. A personality might not be present per se, but the clone would certainly be aware of itself and its environment. That speaks of sentience to me. Unless you created the clone without a brain, it wouldn't be an empty body. And if there's no brain, the body isn't much use.


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Captain Daniel Hunter
CO NCC-74600, U.S.S. Intrepid
Star Trek: Intrepid