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Thread: 3 Rings

  1. #16
    Yeah, I'm sure he'd be one.

    So far, we have:

    Elrond
    Galadriel
    Celeborn
    Gandalf
    Radagast
    Saruman
    Alatar
    Pallando
    Cirdan
    Glorfindel

    Any others?

  2. #17
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  3. #18
    TB's awesome, but I don't think he'd be one of the Wise; he never left his land, right? And he just doesn't seem to me to be the sort for councils, meetings, and fighting the Shadow.

  4. #19
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    OK, accoridng to my 'handbook of the wise of middle-earth', the members of the council ( taken from LORD and The Hobbit ) were The Istari, Galadriel, Glorfindel, Elrond and 'other wise and noble' of the Elves. However all were High Elves and no Wood Elves were included, which Thranduil was very angry about ( because he had no seat either ).
    We came in peace, for all mankind - Apollo 11

  5. #20
    Yes, somehow I couldn't see the old party-hard as a member of the Wise either...

  6. #21
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    Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
    Actually I believe Gandalf speaks of Middle-Earth when referring tom himself as steward. He is steward for middle-earth which he is to protect and mobilize against Sauron's threat, as ordered by the Valinor.
    Middle-Earth was entrusted to him, after it became clear that Saruman had fallen and became a threat himself.
    I think that is pretty close to what he means. I don't know that becoming "White" was that big of chance in mission profile though. I suspect that he and the other wizards were "stewards" all along - Gandalf just stayed on task a bit better than the others.

    It is interesting that I've always figured that he was the most powerful - at least by the end. However, we really don't know about the other 3....
    TK

  7. #22
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    Yes. I assume he only is a stewad, because the Valar are the real Lords of Middle-Earth, but sent him to get things in order, much like Denethor was to administrate Gondor until the King returns.
    We came in peace, for all mankind - Apollo 11

  8. #23
    Originally posted by toadkiller
    I think that is pretty close to what he means. I don't know that becoming "White" was that big of chance in mission profile though. I suspect that he and the other wizards were "stewards" all along - Gandalf just stayed on task a bit better than the others.

    It is interesting that I've always figured that he was the most powerful - at least by the end. However, we really don't know about the other 3....
    I'd guess that Radagast, either from his own limitations or focus, is viewed as the weaker of the three we know about - Saruman's contempt and disdain for Radagast's abilities are evident in the text.

    Furthermore, as Tolkien stated in his other writings that the other two most likely fell from their path when they went East, I'd put them below Gandalf and Saruman in power and strength of purpose.

  9. #24
    Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
    Yes. I assume he only is a stewad, because the Valar are the real Lords of Middle-Earth, but sent him to get things in order, much like Denethor was to administrate Gondor until the King returns.
    Actually, the Valar are more like the stewards or governors, whereas Eru is the read Lord of Middle-earth.

    Tolkien originally suspected that the Ithryn Luin or Blue Wizards fell under the sway of Sauron, and founded magic-using cults that lasted long into the Fourth Age. However, I believe that his last thoughts on the matter were that they remained true to the mission, and worked among the Easterlings, aiding those who revolt against the yoke of Sauron.

  10. #25
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    Originally posted by Glorfindel
    Tolkien originally suspected that the Ithryn Luin or Blue Wizards fell under the sway of Sauron, and founded magic-using cults that lasted long into the Fourth Age. However, I believe that his last thoughts on the matter were that they remained true to the mission, and worked among the Easterlings, aiding those who revolt against the yoke of Sauron.
    Really? If you find the letter or other reference for that, I'd love to read it. The last I heard of the Blue Wizards was in Unfinished Tales, where Tolkien notes that he feared the two went east and were corrupted and fell to darkness. I don't have the book with me, so I can't give you an exact quote right now.

  11. #26
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    Originally posted by Glorfindel
    Actually, the Valar are more like the stewards or governors, whereas Eru is the read Lord of Middle-earth.

    Tolkien originally suspected that the Ithryn Luin or Blue Wizards fell under the sway of Sauron, and founded magic-using cults that lasted long into the Fourth Age. However, I believe that his last thoughts on the matter were that they remained true to the mission, and worked among the Easterlings, aiding those who revolt against the yoke of Sauron.

    Not quite right. Eru gave the Valar Middle-Earth to see what their music did. They are the most powerful beings on Ea - Eru is only a not involving watcher. As the Istari were sent by different Valar, I assume they are their stewards.



    BTW thos two other Istari getting evil is the main topic of my upcoming 4rth Age campaign. I really look forward to it.
    We came in peace, for all mankind - Apollo 11

  12. #27
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    Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
    BTW thos two other Istari getting evil is the main topic of my upcoming 4rth Age campaign. I really look forward to it.
    You too, huh? Bugger all. Time for me to find something else to do...every Narrator I've talked to running a Fourth Age game is using one or both of them.

  13. #28
    I don't remember where it was, but I'll ask about it on my Tolkien board and get back to you.

  14. #29
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    For what it's worth, the footnote in Unfinished Tales regarding the fates of Alatar and Pallando reads as follows (page 401):

    'In a letter written in 1958 my (Christopher Tolkien) father said that he knew nothing clearly about 'the other two', since they were not concerned in the history of the North-west of Middle-earth. 'I think,' he wrote, 'they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to enemy-occupied lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.'

    If there's a later source that alters this, I'd love to read it!

  15. #30
    Quoted from Entmoot:

    JRRT's later writing on the Ithryn Luin is discussed at page 384-385, vol XII of HoME. There name, (Epithets), in ME were; Morinehtar = Darkness Slayer; and Rostestamo = East Helper. Their missions were to help eastern ME tribes which rebeled against Sauron and Morgoth worship, and to weaken by dissention and rebellion the tribes loyal to Sauron. The note is nore optimistic appraising their accomplishment that the earlier one about the selection of the Istari in Valinor. It concludes that they were instrumental in prevent overwhelmiing forces from the East from overrunning the west, but it says nothing of their fate.

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