Political:Powell Spoke.

[Kaiddin]

Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
I wonder why that is? So anybody who agrees not blindly to your opinions, which you fail to base with facts is not worth an opinion?

Because, I think you are a troll. You appear to be here just to sling mud at the US with your War crime chant.

Do I expect everyone to share my opinion, No.
But I respect those like Ramage, Aslan and others who are not here just to try and piss people off.

Notice that I did not include First of Two in my short list? Or Cyberludite?

Give it a thought. Prove me wrong. Or can you!

[Evan van Eyk]

Originally posted by holyone
Impressive. You made up your mind with 2 audio tapes about a war. You know what we can do, at this time, with computers, ain't you? If you want, I can send you a tape of Mickael Jackson saying he loves Hitler.... Easy to do...
Can't you see these proofs ain't proofs, and that you can't kill people for that?

Well after all there is a reason why tapes are only rarely agreed as proof in court - at least its that way in Germany.
However I do not think that the US lied on that - I just think they choose the best ones which they claim to bolster their position - anyone would do that. The task of the Council is now to seed out the true facts, and I mean facts without influence of either side - anti or pro war - and afterwards make a decision not for France, not for Germany, not for the US but for the world community including Iraq.



BTW, neither France nor Germany have ever said there will be no war at any point. It was just said that at the current point France and Germany do not see any step take to resolve the situation peacefully.


And as I said before I only saw a review on the speech, not the whole one itself and commented on the parts I saw and heard. Nothing to get angry about.

[Kaiddin]

Originally posted by C5
Actually, I now could say a number of things I think you are, but anti European would not be amongst the first.

And I have you pegged too!

And now I'm going to have some well deserved sleep. Read you tomorrow for a new round of mindless flaming if this thread hasn't been locked since or has evolved to something more interesting and intelligent (wich I doubt).

Smug arrogance. Who would have thought?

As far as I'm concerned this thread id finished.

[First of Two]

Originally posted by holyone
Impressive. You made up your mind with 2 audio tapes about a war. You know what we can do, at this time, with computers, ain't you? If you want, I can send you a tape of Mickael Jackson saying he loves Hitler.... Easy to do...
Can't you see these proofs ain't proofs, and that you can't kill people for that?

Fortunately for you, your intelligence service is far more adept at determining what is authentic and what is not than you are.

If the tapes were "faked," as you desperately want to believe, French Intelligence (and every other intel group in the world) would be on them in a half-second.

You know what THEY can do, at this time, with computers.

You annihilate your own argument. Purchase a clue.

[Evan van Eyk]

Originally posted by Kaiddin
Because, I think you are a troll. You appear to be here just to sling mud at the US with your War crime chant.

Thank you, I take that as a compliment.

Actually I can understand you in one way, yet you are a contradicting person. You claim that I only throw mud at the US. True to a certain point. But you and many others simply ignore facts and say Amen to anything the government says and decides. Not the slightest sign of critical thinking appears in many posts made at this boards.


Nevertheless, you should read my posts more carefully. Most of the time, I describe a situation and make conclusion - not as my own, but logical conclusion which one can take.


We call it 'Thought-plays' here in Germany. E.g. ripping of the US arguments against Iraq. Showing double-moral and arbitrary argumentation. Short Spoken. What counts for me counts not for you.


In am an idealist, always was and will always be. I fought for my freedom, and paid a high price for it in my childhood. And I fight for my opinions and believes.

Maybe you are a patriot and I can see that you get harmed when somebody talks bad about the US you feel bad as well - like if somebody talks bad about your loved - one.

However if I do so, I do not do it to insult anybody or to do harm. Here in Germany patriotism and nationalism is not common in fact its viewed bad upon. Maybe because of that I cannot imagine how you feel - otherwise I would probably use more tact.
But I feel it is my obligation to raise my voice if injustice is done, thus I will not stop to critize anybody or any nation who does injustice.



But lets get things straight. I do not think Saddam is a good guy and I can only repeat for the thousands time. If there is proof for Iraq planning to use WMDs against any nation in an aggressive manner I cannot come up wiht an alternative to combat action - and will shut up.


But the proof Powell brought up is just not weighing enough. The photos he showed - actually proofed nothing. You could see a truck and on the next picture its gone. Powell says its a decontamination vehicle - but there is no sign for it. It could be a school bus. But even if its a decon-vessel that could be used for military training. I saw several decon-vessel during my military service. That does not mean Germany will do WMD-attacks on any country.

The other pictures showed some bunkers so small, you could hardly recon anything. Again this can be anything.

Maybe you can make up your mind on emotion alone, even if its such important matters. But since I am better with my mind than with intuition I want to see pure facts, which were not present for what I saw. However it is not me who decides upon that issue but the UN Security Council.

The US demand Iraq to stick to UN resolutions, yet do not apply that rule for themselves. As Lt. Khrys Antos stated in the 'debate' threat. Its no moral superiority which makes the US move, but simple military strength. I believe that is true and while I do not like that fact, its at least the truth, which is far more which any of the players in the political area stated recently.

[Evan van Eyk]

Originally posted by First of Two
Fortunately for you, your intelligence service is far more adept at determining what is authentic and what is not than you are.

If the tapes were "faked," as you desperately want to believe, French Intelligence (and every other intel group in the world) would be on them in a half-second.

You know what THEY can do, at this time, with computers.

You annihilate your own argument. Purchase a clue.

I doubt the US gave their originals away thus any try to analyse the tapes would fail because you cannot analyse a copy of a tape for manipulation very well. Additionally both, the video tape and the voice tape, had a very bad quality, which can hide any manipulation easily. ( remember 'In the Pale Moonlight?" ).

[First of Two]

Bad choice of examples. In "Pale Moonlight," The deception was uncovered.

[holyone]

For 1/2-> Now think of that:
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling that thinks nothing worth a war is worse. A man who has nothing he cares more about than he does his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance at being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself"

[First of Two]

Your argument is unclear. Have you switched sides?

[Evan van Eyk]

Originally posted by First of Two
Bad choice of examples. In "Pale Moonlight," The deception was uncovered.

??? I do not remember that.

However I did not mean it as example of the fact that it can be discovered or not, I just wanted to say that even people with good intentions can use such methods and thus eventually fail to protect what they want to protect. I wanted to remind you of the morality aspect of the episode not of any intel method.

[holyone]

1/2-> No, and that's the point. Don't you think we should not do everything possible to avoid a war?
And do you think there are "sides" between trekkies?

[holyone]

Evan-> The one with Garak in DS9, and the Romulans forced to go war?

[Kaiddin]

Thank you, I take that as a compliment.

Yes, I can see where you would. However I use the following definition:

Trolls are recognizable by the fact that the have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly reatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, "Oh, ignore him, he's just a troll."

You may see that as admirable but to each his own.

Actually I can understand you in one way.

You've shown that you don't nor do you care to learn. You have your mind made up, you believe you are always right and don't care what else there is.

But you and many others simply ignore facts and say Amen to anything the government says and decides. Not the slightest sign of critical thinking appears in many posts made at this boards.

Mighty arrogant on your part don't you think. You obviously have no idea what I really think, believe or disbelieve. You can be relatively certain that I disagree with your crusade but you can't be sure. What if I was just a troll? Oh right, I don't spout anti-whatever crap every time I post.

Critical thinking. Not going to waste my time on this bit of arrogance.

Maybe you are a patriot and I can see that you get harmed when somebody talks bad about the US you feel bad as well - like if somebody talks bad about your loved - one.

To be honest I really do not care if someone says something bad about the US, Canada, Britain or wherever. I do take exception to the constant droning of the same old thing. As I said before, I know that you have a low opinion on the US. Don't try to claim you don't, you have displayed it here. Fine keep it to your self. You haven't given any proof to make anyone change their minds. You just drone on. I would say the same thing to someone whose sole purpose was to say the US is the greatest country in the world. Nice that you have that opinion but as someone else on these fora said "Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one". Doesn't mean you need to go around showing it all the time.

About a loved one, okay I'll admit that I'm so much a barbarian in that respect. That is why I'll never give my name on these fora. I'm don't tolerate anyone screwing with my family. Period.

All this being said, you will not change your opinion of me, I'll not change my opinion of you. I don't think you have it in you to even make an effort to try. You will maintain your feelings of moral superiority and I'll ignore you. Situation solved.

[Joe Dizzy]

Originally posted by Kaiddin
You will maintain your feelings of moral superiority and I'll ignore you. Situation solved.

You know my screen almost cracked, because of the irony overload.

[Dan Stack]

y'know I rarely agree with Evan (except, juding by his website, in gaming tastes) but I don't see him as a troll. Persistent, yes. But a troll, no. A troll would just pop in the General area and shout "America is evil". He contributes a lot to the non-General forums (yes, we do have them still ), something a troll wouldn't do. And whatever one might think of his views, he is consistent.

Geez, I'm definding way too many people I tend to disagree with today...

If I ever go to France or Germany, you guys owe me a beer (well, wine in France - I've never heard of a good French beer!)