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Thread: Political:Powell Spoke.

  1. #46
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    Originally posted by Evan van Eyk
    ??? I do not remember that.
    You don't remember the Romulan guy hissing "It's a FAAAAAAAKE!"
    "It's hard being an evil genius when everybody else is so stupid" -- Quantum Crook

  2. #47
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    He, man come on, I can just give you a french beer !
    We do that, too. But, I agree, belgium ones are better

  3. #48
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    To 1/2, because they have no proof!!! The Tal shiar is still working on it
    In our case, every lamer could produce evidence of this kind, just admit it!

  4. #49
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    Originally posted by holyone
    1/2-> No, and that's the point. Don't you think we should not do everything possible to avoid a war?
    And do you think there are "sides" between trekkies?
    "everything possible" has a huge range. You'd need to define it.

    For me, "everything possible" does not include such things as:

    Nuking Iraq flat. This would avoid a war, clearly, but is not acceptable.

    Surrendering (just put this in here for fun.)

    Allowing Iraq to continue its deception until the UN gives up or Hussein succeeds in using/giving away bio or chem weapons, or building nukes.

    So I would have to say that I would likely approve of everything possible that does not include those.

    Keep in mind that one of Al-qaeda's prime recruitment incentives is a belief that the West, including the US, is a "paper tiger" that won't fight. Backing down against Iraq would be tantamount to proving that belief to be correct.


    Listen.

    I would drop the war talk, or at least support postponement indefinitely, if the Iraqis started complying as they are supposed to under the UN resolutions.

    However, I do not believe that there is any greater a chance of that happening than there is of my being whisked away by Pixies to the Land of Nymphomanic Eighteen-Year-Old IBG's and Tori Amos Lookalikes With Oral Fixations.
    "It's hard being an evil genius when everybody else is so stupid" -- Quantum Crook

  5. #50
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    Originally posted by holyone
    To 1/2, because they have no proof!!! The Tal shiar is still working on it
    In our case, every lamer could produce evidence of this kind, just admit it!
    Why should I admit to something that is blatantly untrue?

    Just admit that going to war without France is like going out to dinner without the kids.
    "It's hard being an evil genius when everybody else is so stupid" -- Quantum Crook

  6. #51
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    Originally posted by Joe Dizzy
    You know my screen almost cracked, because of the irony overload.
    Then today is not a complete loss.

    arrogance

    \Ar"ro*gance\, n. [F., fr. L. arrogantia, fr. arrogans. See Arrogant.] The act or habit of arrogating, or making undue claims in an overbearing manner; that species of pride which consists in exorbitant claims of rank, dignity, estimation, or power, or which exalts the worth or importance of the person to an undue degree; proud contempt of others; lordliness; haughtiness; self-assumption; presumption.
    Did I say that I was superior to the one I still maintain is a troll? I hope not.

    Strange how I basically started by saying that I didn't think that Powell's speech to the UN would have any real inpact as everyone has alreally made up their minds and show no chance of changing. I then said that all that would result in BOTH sides agruing just to hear themselves argue and then I'm accused of starting a flame war.

    In that I think Evan is a troll and probably an ass as well is my opinion. Odd that I am criticized for that by people who chide me for the mistaken belief that I don't give credit to the value of other opinions. What a joke.

    I do ask one thing, no more e-mails. I have changed my e-mail address registered here. I don't think I need more of that.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those
    who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."
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    "Michael Moore is reminiscent of a heavy-handed Leni Riefenstahl, who glorified Nazism in the 1930s." Peter Worthington, Toronto Sun.

  7. #52
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    ->1/2 Just kill Saddam. But why killing so much people, exept for petroil? Open your eye, man...

  8. #53
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    Originally posted by holyone
    ->1/2 Just kill Saddam. But why killing so much people, exept for petroil? Open your eye, man...
    If we just were after the oil, we'd drop the sanctions and buy out Fina's 1.4 billion dollar drilling contracts with the Hussein government.
    "If it ain't the Devil's music, you ain't doin' it right" -- Chris Thomas King

    "C makes for an awfully long lever." - H. Beam Piper

  9. #54
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    Originally posted by Julian
    I get the distinct feeling that a Unified world is something they do not want...
    The opposite, actually. And there are plenty of people who think a single, over-arching, unchallenged global power woulf be a bad thing.
    "War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

    John Stuart Mill

  10. #55
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    Well, I think by this ... ummm ... reasoned debate we have proven a couple of things.

    First: many people have entrenched positions that will not be changed in this forum.

    Second: that it is far to easy to fall into invective, generalization, and associated sins of debate.

    I finally got a chance to listen to Sec. Powell's talk. I don't think his words will change a lot of minds, especially at the U.N., but it may change a handful; of course, the talk was as much to convince people in the United States who are on the fence as it was to convince the world forum.

    In the end there will be a war. Whether the war is justified or not is open to much debate, but the matter was set several months ago. Now we are just waiting to see the final game plan.

    Pax.

  11. #56
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    Originally posted by Kaiddin
    In that I think Evan is a troll and probably an ass as well is my opinion.
    I'd have to disagree. I find Evan to be rather naive on international issues, but he doesn't come across as particularly rude. But then, to each their own. As you said when this started of, no one's going to is going to convince anyone else.
    "If it ain't the Devil's music, you ain't doin' it right" -- Chris Thomas King

    "C makes for an awfully long lever." - H. Beam Piper

  12. #57
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    "Sorry if this seems harsh from me but... well to be honest I get tired of seeing most Europeans on this board trying to be polite while on the other side some Americans don't mind throwing insults and never apologizing. Debates may be heated, right, they don't have to turn into a unilateral epithets contest."

    I don't think any of us are exempt from using ad hominem arguments.
    "War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

    John Stuart Mill

  13. #58
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    I think the "war for oil" argument is a tad overplayed. As others have said, why? Like others have said, the US could get it a lot cheaper by dropping sanctions. Troop deployments of this magnitude are not cheap.

    If the US is to be criticized for the case it has made, then the same scruitiny should be applied to the "war for oil" argument. What evidence is there? If my pre-9/11 memory is correct, I seem to recall that the oil companies that Bush and Cheney are supposed to be beholden to want sanctions to be dropped.
    AKA Breschau of Livonia (mainly rpg forums)
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  14. #59
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    Ther's a tiny bit of truth to what holyone (talk about arrogance) is speaking of.

    Iraq has deals with France and owes them billions of dollars, which was to be paid from oil revenue. France is afraid that the money will vanish if Iraq is invaded.

    Hence their opposition.

    It's about oil... but for France, not for the US.
    "It's hard being an evil genius when everybody else is so stupid" -- Quantum Crook

  15. #60
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    Originally posted by Dan Stack
    I think the "war for oil" argument is a tad overplayed. As others have said, why? Like others have said, the US could get it a lot cheaper by dropping sanctions. Troop deployments of this magnitude are not cheap.

    If the US is to be criticized for the case it has made, then the same scruitiny should be applied to the "war for oil" argument. What evidence is there? If my pre-9/11 memory is correct, I seem to recall that the oil companies that Bush and Cheney are supposed to be beholden to want sanctions to be dropped.
    Not quite. If the US 'free' Iraq and install their administration there as planned, they would not be bound to OPEC and thus could make their own prices - circumwenting any OPEC decision, which would give the US a serious advantage.
    In the threat analysis of the Pentagon, it was said that one major drawback if Iraq burns his oild wells.

    (Again no offense meant, just stating what I saw in a TV analysis of the Iraq situation ).
    We came in peace, for all mankind - Apollo 11

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