The American Civil War - what others think

[Eric R.]

The US Civil War (1861-65) is conisdered the defining event of US History. I was curious as to what perceptions people have about this war, especially non-American perspectives. Discuss along the following points:

1.) To what extent does the education system you have been a product of teach you about this subject if at all. Were you even able to study it as part of elective study?

2.) Do you think the war is still relevent to the US and do you think the war is very much still alive in the national memory.

[Ineti]

Good question.

1. I was brought up through the good ol' USA public school system. I don't remember learning anything about the War in elementary school, but it was covered in middle school (where I got really interested in it), and got to learn more in high school. The issues were discussed, the major points of the war, and the results.

College really opened up more avenues; I took 2 or 3 elective courses on different aspects of the War.

All in all, I'd say my education gave me a good background on the war, and enough that my interest was piqued and I went out and learned even more on my own time.

2. I think the war is still very much relevant to the US, but I may be biased since I live in Virginia, and unfortunately, there are areas of this state that still feel like they belong in the 19th century. Racism is an unfortunate reality of this country, no matter how many people insist we've progressed beyond it.

And also unfortunately, there are a lot of people in this state that I would swear think the war is still going on. Without being derogatory, there are still a lot of good ol' boys out there who will insist "The South Will Rise Again."

Says so on their license plates.

[Capt.Hunter]

I always considered it a war over whether or not you could marry your cousin (or was that Springfield/Shelbyville?)

[Inajira]

Hi there
I'm from South Africa myself, so although I had subsequently read up on most of America's wars, there is little or no coverage of them in our education system. The American Civil War is very interesting because of the whole 'brother fighting brother' concept, for a start. I do however believe that the War of Independance is more the defining war of American history. It more than any other hammered out just what the American 'revolutionary' system was all about. A system that was unheard of for its time. Every country has civil wars, many of them famous... these to me are just fighting over 'the details'.
Anyway, my 2c worth...

[DynaMup]

I never studied the American Civil War until I came to University. American history is simply not studied here in Britain (except perhaps in a few schools - and only then only briefly). However, even then it's hardly compulsory at uni...I just happen to be a (British) US Historian.

I think the war is still present in some form of US consciousness. When I was last in New York, there were some rumblings about some of the southern states wanting to fly the confederate flag instead of the national flag on public buildings, and I can remember there being considerable outrage on TV at the time (this was in 2001).

In my experience, the south of the USA is very different from the north. As I keep explaining to people, the US isn't like "one nation". It's more like a loose association of states under a single federal government, and each state is quite individual.

[Chang]

1.) To what extent does the education system you have been a product of teach you about this subject if at all. Were you even able to study it as part of elective study?

well, I learnt alot in 8th grade. but most of my knowledge (which I have a whole lot in the civil war) came from personal study, I read tons of books.


2.) Do you think the war is still relevent to the US and do you think the war is very much still alive in the national memory.

I think it is one of the most infulencial wars to date. it made what our nation is today. People still was to make a confederate nation. But people are not educated enough on it.

[qerlin]

Public school education: very little on the Civil War was taught, just the most cursory of overview. I learned most of my knowledge of the war in college or private study.

The Civil War is second only to the Revolutionary War in importance for American history, IMO. The Revolutionary War set the parameters for what the United States could be; the Civil War defined what it would be.

The issue of slavery was the 'key' issue, but was not the only one. Underpinning the slave question was the notion of state vs. federal power..or the old 'state's rights' question. It was also the defining moment for what would be the primary political block in the nation; previous to the war it was the agrarian South, with Viriginia as it's center. After the war, the center of power shifted north to the Northeast and the industrial/financial busineeses -- areas traditionally more statist than the agrarian South, which was more individualist.

Underestimating the cultural differences between the North, South, and the West (not including California, which is extraterrestrial, politically and socially) is a common and serious problem in the US political and social debate. The legacy of the state's right movement held on through the Dixiecrats of the 1940-50s and continues today in the burgeoning libertarian movement. There is a sharp divide that was brought out particularly in this past election; the more rural/suburban south and midwest votes differently, has different values, from the more urbanized states of the East Coast, the West Coast, and the Lakes region.

In some ways, the Civil War is the precursor to all the issues of state vs. individual, gov't vs. business, gun owners vs. gun abolitionists, secularists vs. Christians. If anything, the divide grows sharper as the urban areas strive to increase control over what people throughout the nation, not just their areas, can and cannot do. The increase in political manipulation to create race issues in the past decade or so has also exacerbated the split between these elements of American society. There is an underlying homogeneity in the American culture that has been attacked by deconstructionist elements in the nation; these forces differences are causing a schism in US society.

The South may not rise again...but their issues may soon.

[Ramage]

As an inhabitant of the extraterrestrial state (sorry, had to say something that way... ), I must say that I have a deep knowledge of the ACW due to a brother who is a junky on the topic. His high school graduation present was a complete set of The Complete Records of the War of the Rebellion, which is essentially a copy of every order passed by the Union Army.

It was through my brother, however, that I learned about some of the real importance of the war.

Point 1: Slavery. Pretty much a minor issue until about the mid-point of the war. This is the aspect that has been pushed the most since, but at the beginning of very little importance.

Point 2: States' Rights. Much more important, as it was the basis for session in the first place -- do individual states have the right to dissolve the Union?

Point 3: How close the war was to a World War.

Didn't expect that did you?

The government of Great Britain desperately wanted to back the Confederacy during the war, but a combination of bad timing and public sentiment (remember, Britain had already outlawed slavery) kept them from declaring. France at this point controlled Mexico and was looking forward to grabbing up territories in the southwest after the war was done; sadly for Maximillian, Gen. Sherman and his bummers were sent down to the border after the war and called the French bluff. Russia sent it's Pacific fleet to San Francisco, partially to save it from iced in during a particularly cold winter and partially as a political gesture -- this also later played out with the purchase of Alaska, but that is a longer story.

But most importantly Prussia sent a huge number of military observers to watch the Union Army. They saw some key elements -- have a strong supply train and a trained logistical staff, build lots of railways all of the same gauge, and drop smooth-bore artillery ASAP. Results? Austrio-Prussian War and Franco-Prussian War and now Prussia controlled a unified Germany.

Keeping European powers out of the American Civil War took a lot of maneuvering; you can thank Seward for a lot of that, as well as some absolutely horrid Confederate diplomats -- why they decided that sending folks who spoke Cajun-French to Paris was a good idea still boggles the mind, but a political bone needed to be thrown there.

Details for those as are interested may be obtained via e-mail

[Silverthorne]

I was never really taught about the Civil war. I move about during school. One school said that american history was a 9th grade class, and the one i moved to it wa an 7 grade class.. I was in the 8th grade.. Bummer.. I have only researched alittle and have no real decision on the war. Not enough information.

[Greg Smith]

Originally posted by Eric R.
1.) To what extent does the education system you have been a product of teach you about this subject if at all. Were you even able to study it as part of elective study?

We weren't taught about the war at all at school. Nor was there an elective course. The elective part of history was whether to continue learning about it all after the age of 13.

I personally know very few details about the war. As I understand it, it was about both succession and slavery.

2.) Do you think the war is still relevent to the US and do you think the war is very much still alive in the national memory.

From what I have read and seen on TV, it seems to be. It may be that this is because it was such a huge event in the relatively short history of the US, or it maybe that of all of the major wars fought by the US, this was one of the few fought on US soil.

[Dan Stack]

I'm a little hesitant to enter fully into this thread, given that by its nature it is pretty darn close to political.

For non-Americans who want to understand America better (or Americans who are not familiar with it) I strongly encourage you to understand what caused the American Civil War to be fought. Not so much to understand the battles, but to understand why it was, in many ways, the defining point of American history. The Revolution and Constitution may have started us off - and were very important - but the Civil War defined us. It was literaly a war in which brother fought against brother. To understand what makes America tick, you would do well to understand what made us kill each other in the bloodiest war in our history. Towns lost all of their young men. And oddly enough, there was still respect for the soldiers and officers of the other side. In the aftermath, only one person was ever charged with treason and to this day Confederate Generals are still respected.

And it should be noted you won't even find universal agreement on what it was about! For a good starting point, if it is available on DVD overseas, the Ken Burns film "The Civil War" is very watchable and informative. It features Shelby Foote quite prominently and if you enjoy him he is well known for writing a 3-volume Civil War Narrative.

[C5]

History was not my main field of study (quite the opposite actually, although I preferred it to geography ), but I remember having some course about the Civil War (I remember having it being presented as the first war with modern armaments).
In fact, I think a lot of people know about this war in France (I wonder if the fact that a rather known comics series takes place during it has some influence on that), but most (like me) think it was mainly about dealing with slavery, and have a very limited knowledge of it (for instance I am unable to say right now wich sides Generals Grant and Lee were )

As for how it's seen today in the USA, until some time ago, I thought there was little to none - until I learned on this very board some months ago that there was still some resentment existing from the South toward the North.

[Eric R.]

Not so much resentment as a feeling of betrayal on the part of many southerners. After the war there was a generally feeling that the South would admit that in the end it was a good thing the North won while he North would honor and keep the memory of the confederacy alive and well that included the right to use the Confederate flag. Lately that has been under attack as well as the clean image of the Confederacy (the one devoid of slavery) Some of this has been needed for along time but most of it has been just been plain silly, efforts to remove monumants, prevent flying of Confederate flags over the graves of Confederate veterans etc... Meanwhile Supporters of the Flag resent being painted as racist just becuase they feel some pride in the fact there ancestors choose to fight for what they believed in (mainly states rights, Individual freedom and less intrusive government) and resent it being painted as just fighting for slavery.

[C5]

I must confess that what I remembered about the Civil War was mostly something like : "Lincoln wanted to abolish slavery, but the South didn't want to and then started a war".
Then again as I said, I'm no history scholar at all.

[Curious]

C5, your view that Lincoln wanted to abolish slavery is a common misconception. In actuality, Lincoln wanted to prevent any territories from entering the Union as slave states.

His intent to abolish slavery did not actually occur till the Emancipation Proclomation (I beleive it was passed in 1863 but not positive). This was mainly done to increase the enlistments in the Union army.