What do Orcs eat in Moria?

[Grutos]

Originally posted by Captain Novaes
One another ?

I could see canabalism with Orcs.

[Phantom]

Originally posted by Lt. Dade

Let me ask you this: What does everybody do at Minas Tirith? What are the jobs of people there? Did Orthanc have a support staff before the War of the Ring? The folks who live in Bree ... what do they do for a living? What about those folks at Edoras?

So, I take it you can't play 'comfortably' in most D&D campaigns then? Unless the DM has figured out the demographics of the various cities and villages in Forgotten Realms. Or for that fact any other fantasy setting.

Let me ask you this: Why is it so important that the various occupations have to be shown? I myself just assumed that all the necessary occupations would be represented in Minas Tirith and Bree. The good prof. spent years coming up with this wonderful world including over 6000 years of history and your upset because he didn't include a detailed look into William the Miller's life as he went to work in Bree?

Note: this is not meant to be taken as being aimed at anyone in particular. I guess you can't satisfy everyone.

[Lt. Dade]

So, I take it you can't play 'comfortably' in most D&D campaigns then? Unless the DM has figured out the demographics of the various cities and villages in Forgotten Realms. Or for that fact any other fantasy setting.

No, I can. Thanks for the attitude, though.

You're missing my point. I'm not a simulationist, believe you me. I won't recite my opinion again, though, unwelcome as it seems to be. I suppose I should've done it better the first time. I thought I could have a discussion, maybe get some advice from folks who've had more luck with role-playing in Middle-Earth than I have, but instead I'm just getting my opinions evaluated.

People feel constricted by the events and information in the books. That's not my opinion. That's a fact: people do. Unless related advice in the core rulebook was written just for me, I'm not the only one.

I myself just assumed that all the necessary occupations would be represented in Minas Tirith and Bree. The good prof. spent years coming up with this wonderful world including over 6000 years of history and your upset because he didn't include a detailed look into William the Miller's life as he went to work in Bree?

Tolkien wrote 6000 years of history, and yet you're left making assumptions. That's my point, Phantom. You're demonstrating my other point: your language and tone is aimed to make me feel unwelcome because I don't have the interest in 6000 years of artificial history that you do; because my interests aren't the same as yours. You're the sort of fan I'm getting at: exclusionary, elitist and inflexible. You might not be intentionally trying to send me this signal, but if that's the case, your language must be very sloppy, for this is the signal I'm receiving.

Note: this is not meant to be taken as being aimed at anyone in particular. I guess you can't satisfy everyone.

Not aimed at anyone in particular? Who, then, is the understood "you" in "your upset" (sic)? You don't get to mouth off and then back out of it with the half-assed, insincere niceties you're showing here.

The presentation of Middle-Earth doesn't upset me, it's just not a great fit with what I look for in an RPG setting. The title of this thread touched on the reason why, so I thought I could join in the discussion. What upsets me is the manner in which you seem to regard others' opinions, Phantom. I disagreed with you, but was polite in another thread. Now you're behaving like the sort of person that keeps me out of forums. Thanks a bunch. I liked it here.

Ineti, you've always been polite and even-handed in discussions. Thanks for that.

Word,
Will

[Edit: I'm not proud of this post, but after I just talked about ducking out of things just-said, I figure I should leave it up and sleep in the bed I made. Regardless, this thread has actually made me feel pretty crappy today. How nice.]

[calguard66]

Actually, ICE came out with an excellent book on Minas Trith years ago that detailed almost every building in the place... talked about the economy, guilds, etc.

To answer your questions in a general way, the economics of middle-earth would HAVE to be fairly medieval. There is no way to transport perishable food, except on-the-hoof. Every urban area would need large plots of ariable land fairly close.

Most villages like Bree would have primarily service industries focused on the local farmers... blacksmiths, coopers, wagonwrights, carpenters, etc. Bree is somewhat special in that it sits at a crossroads, and also would have the additional economic boost from travellers, and would also sport inns, stables and such for them.

Minas Tirith was primarily focused on supporting the government seat. It would have many of the same service industries as Bree... except that most structures are created of stone, so there would be few carpenters but many stonemasons. As everything has to fit within the walls, think of it much like San Fransisco... space is at a premium, and anything new that gets built is constructed in the space opened by trearing something else down. In the books the fields in front of the city are described as being almost completely agricultural, with small villages scattered about. It quite clearly describes crops being burned by the orcs.

Also remember that, while these cities were massive by middle-earth standards, they actually are fairly small by modern, or even Roman, standards. If I recall correctly Minas Tirith held about 10,000 regular residents. The entire army that marched against Saruon was only 15,000 or so.

[Lt. Dade]

To answer your questions in a general way ...

Thank you. It's a relief to know that someone else at least has wondered. Minas Tirith is a government town, that's just the sort of fundamental information I need. The small-scale, almost Dark Ages size of cities and villages is something that does really appeal to me about Middle-Earth.

word,
Will

[toadkiller]

I think we're "supposed" to think of middle-earth as sort of a middle ages - perhaps that's even why he named it such?

It is a dark ages that we see - in the days of the Hobbit they are relatively nice dark ages, but it is generally accepted that the glory days of the ancients have passed by leaving only ruins and isolated pocktets of "decent lands". (Who, by the way, each consider the others to be barbarians or dangerous). Then, by the end of LOTR we're starting the "age of man" with the implication of a new golden age with progress and stuff.

Populations are low, commerce is slow, and production is primarily agrarian - in fact Mordor and Isengard seem to represent industrial "progress" which is viewed negatively by everybody else.

My advice to the concerned narrator - gloss it, then lay down the law that "this is the way it is, next scene" if the story is good, they'll play.

[Thror]

A question that always bugged me is: Where is everyone in Middle-earth? After the North Kingdom fell, it seems that only the Shire and Bree-land survived....thats only abut a few thousand people/hobbits, in a handfull of towns/villages, for a very large area (Eriador). Where did everyone who lived around Fornost, Annuminas, Tharbad, and whatever other small towns go? Did everyone in Eriador pack their cart and move? Talk about 'White Flight'!!!!! The Hobbits seemed to thrive in the Shire (Tolkien mentions about a dozen villages/towns), but other than Bree-land (Bree, Staddle, Archet and Combe) its all vacant.....

This always rubbed me the wrong way and seemed unrealisitic.

Don't get me wrong, I am a Tolkien (semi)purist and am fairly well read on M-E and love it.

[Phantom]

Not sure if it is official or something only the game uses, I'll have to check, but the Northern areas of ME were ravaged by plague in the past. That could explain where many went...They died. It seems to me that it is the Southern sections that are heavily populated. Not really unrealistic, look at far Northern Canada, not many people living there...Compared with the rest of the country.

[Ineti]

The plague is canon, though I don't have a page or book reference handy. I was skimming the Atlas of ME last night and ran across a couple maps that mentioned the area east of the Shire, what, Rhudaur? was largely depopulated thanks to plague.

[Thror]

The Plague was between 1635 and 1637 TA, it spread from the East and decimated all of North West Middle Earth. Supposedly, however, the Plague lost strength as it moved north. Tharbad was decimated, but Arthedain was little hit. Even if it was, that would have been 1400 years in the past. Gondor recovered, Rhovanion recovered, Bree recoverd, why not Eriador?

Rhudaur was depopulated by 1409, after the second Angmar War, 200 years b4 the Plague.

I also know that their was the Fell Winter of the 2800's, the Angmar Wars between 1300-1975, and various Orc and Troll raids affected Eriador. But even so, zero population growth?

[Phantom]

After the Kingdom in the North fell, what would be left to hold people there? Most of the area was devasted by war, disease and severe climate changes, is it so hard to believe that an exodous of the area could have occured. It has in the past. With nothing to hold in the North they simply migrated into the bigger urban centres of the South.

[Turin]

I have always thought there were lots of other little settlements through out the lost Kingdom of Arnor, Arthedain at least, though there is no central government and no strong ties to each other.

There was enough Dunedain of the North to continue the family line for over a thousand years from the fall of Arthedain in 1974 till Aragorn in 2900's. So I have always thought that there are still quite a few Dunedain villages spread through the north.

I figure that most of them are agricultural by nature with limited industry, maybe a mill here and there and black smiths.


LT. Dade,

I must say that we did have problems with role-playing in ME for a long time. And we felt very confined for some of the reasons that you listed. We did a couple of things that helped open the world a bit more to our characters.

First from the point that the campaign starts all Tolkien Canon is superceded by the campaigns events.

Second and most important in my mind no disagreements about GM's interpretation or use of history for use with in the campaign are discussed at the table.

Third we try and stay away from the time period and events of the War of the Ring. Though depending on the players this isn't a big deal, most of the people that I play with are good about role-playing and don't suggest off hand that we go search the tunnels under Goblin's Gate for some disfigured hobbit.

Not sure if this helps or not, but depending on the group I have been able to GM and adjust things to fit my campaign with out any problems from the players.

Actually I have had more problems getting the Players to play Middle Earth characters rather then DnD/FR characters in Middle Earth.

[RobRobBinks]

This is a great topic amongst my local (DC Metro area) Tolkienphiles...what do people do al day?

Seeing how my chronicle is set in Mirkwood, it was especially difficult to figure out what a day to day life was like. I found a neat article on "What do Woodmen Do All Day" on the web, and it helped me to discern what the locals were up to.

I think that this kind of flavor is crucial to a successful roleplaying game, as it helps the players immerse themselves in the environment, and makes all this fantasy more "believeable". It is this reason that I most likely wil not run a "Voctorian Age" Vampire RPG, even though I think that it is the most interesting setting. I just do not have the historical background knowledge to "sell" it.

Take care!

[Lt. Dade]

Hey Turin, thanks for advice! I'll certainly take it to heart. As for getting PCs that truly belong in Middle-Earth (and doesn't the Forgotten Realms demonstrate that the basic fantasy tropes have mutated over the years?), I think the new rulebook goes a fair way towards encouraging more earthly, less power-mongering characters, though in a strange way.

Consider this oddity about the Advancements in Coda. Characters can become excellent warriors early on in their adventuring careers, but they still have limits on skill levels, so eventually their Advancements force them to pursue other directions. Let them learn that soaking up damage in Coda isn't always a simple thing and challenge them with survival, role-playing and other more delicate encounters. This works for me in D&D and Star Trek and every other game I run, at least.

RobBob, pardon my brief tangent here, but what did you think of "Victorian Age Vampire" outside of your aforementioned thoughts?

word,
Will

[Ineti]

Originally posted by Lt. Dade
Characters can become excellent warriors early on in their adventuring careers, but they still have limits on skill levels, so eventually their Advancements force them to pursue other directions.

I love that aspect of the game. It's so fitting. Merry and Pippin start LOTR as basically no order Hobbits, and grow into warriors over time.

I like the possibility of creating any order character, advancing him for a while, then having him mature and develop into something else.