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Thread: Oh, good grief...

  1. #16
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    Re: Re: Re: Oh, good grief...

    Originally posted by erhershman
    Why are ratings so poor?

    Because a large majority of Trek fans have standards of ultra-perfection and refuse to watch anything that isn't 100% dead-on. They refuse to accept that cliches and reused storylines are a part, have always been a part, and always will be a part, of Star Trek. And they refuse to believe that Rick Berman and Brannon Braga will ever turn out anything good, even though Berman has done so before (with DS9.)


    Why did Nemesis do so badly?

    Because 1) it released a few days before LotR and 2) see explanation of poor ratings above; the same applies to the movie.

    Just thought I'd get that across.
    Respectfully, erhershman, this is your opinion. I speak for myself, as someone who disliked Nemesis, and who finds Enterprise occasionally interesting but too often subpar.

    I'm not looking for 100% adherence to continuity. I *am* looking for engaging stories. And I don't agree that cliches and reused storylines are acceptable, even though they have been used in the past. Probably my least favorite TNG episode was "The Naked Now", a shameless rewrite of "The Naked Time".

    I won't say Berman and Braga have never turned out anything good (in fact, I don't recall ever saying that). I will say that I think their best Trek years are behind them, and they'll have to prove otherwise to me.

    I think with a better story, people would have been happy to see Nemesis, LoTR or no LoTR. I also don't think Nemesis would have done substantially better without LoTR. Quality stands on its own, and the lack of it likewise. Nemesis just wasn't a good film. It was better than the terrible script that floated about the internet, but, then, it would have been hard pressed to do worse.

    But in the end, it doesn't matter what you or I as individuals think. What matters is whether the franchise makes money. Right now, the cash stream is threatened. That suggests change is needed. I think a big step in the right direction would be to encourage Berman and Braga to move on to other things, and get some fresh creativity into the mix.

    YMMV.

  2. #17
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    In my opinion it is possible to do a perfect TV episode, it's just that the work involved is immense. B5's "Za'ha'dum" is as close to perfect as I've ever seen, however it took three years to get there. . .

  3. #18
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    Originally posted by ComaBoy
    In my opinion it is possible to do a perfect TV episode, it's just that the work involved is immense. B5's "Za'ha'dum" is as close to perfect as I've ever seen, however it took three years to get there. . .
    Z'Ha'Dum did reach close to perfection, but so did many Trek episodes : "Balance of Terror", "The Doomsday Machine", "Amok Time", "The Best of Both Worlds", "Yesterday's Enterprise", "Redemption", "Unification" ...

    I agree totally with Fesarius: "I'm not looking for 100% adherence to continuity (there have been continuity errors in the past - just not as totally blatant as on ENTERPRISE). I *am* looking for engaging stories. And I don't agree that cliches and reused storylines are acceptable, even though they have been used in the past..."

  4. #19
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    I must admit I didn't like Nemesis, but not because it was a bad Trek movie. It was simply a BAD movie, like Attack of the Clones or Minority Report.

    Trek isn't doing poorly because the fans are taking it down, its doing a fine job just by itself. The storylines are getting repetitive or there are huge similarities. Fact is, there are only so many ideas you can think of before you run out of them.

    Whoever suggested that Trek should go on hiatus is bang on target. There was a huge gap between the StarWars trilogies, whether you liked them or not, the newest one's made a ton of profit in ticket sales and most importantly toy sales.

    ENT just doesn't enthrall me into its story and I'm not the only one. The trekkers I know got involved in VOY, they thought it was a great sci-fi at the time. They see ENT and simply ignore it. None of them watch it. And if ratings are low then we all have a problem and the show will not last, just like Firefly which I enjoyed.
    "The misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all."
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  5. #20
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    Originally posted by erhershman

    And BTW, define "really stunning." You seem to know what you want from an ENT episode, so what is it?
    I'm not looking for perfect, just a really good story.

    To define really stunning I'll use ex. from the series
    TOS
    City on the Edge of Forever
    Mirror, Mirror
    Balance of Terror

    TNG
    The Wounded
    Below Decks
    The Face of the Enemy
    Yesterday's Enterprise

    DS 9
    A Call to Arms
    (sorry don't know all the titles)
    The ep where Edington was killed- Loved the Lucky Loonie.
    Most of DW Stories

    Voyager
    Scorpion
    The ep with that War memorial (again can't remember title)
    The ep. where Janeway took the 3 misfits on an away mission.

    Enterprise
    Cease Fire

    These are some of the more outstanding eps from Trek. IMHO of course.

  6. #21

    Unhappy SIGH

    oooooooooohhhhhhhhh boy

    here we go again with the same old line:

    "you must be StUpId for trashing Enterprise and Nemesis! You will kill Star Trek!! Shut UP!!! Yes they sucked! Support them!!!! Do it!!!! It is your duty!!!!! Shut Up!!! SHUT UP!!!!.............................."

    SIGH

    I got read this during the TOS movies and Voyager.

    I never supported either.

    They brought this upon themselves.

    If this wasn't Star Trek I wouldn't be getting yelled at.

    SIGh

    I read once during the Golden Age of Television a tv show was canelled. It ran for 10 yrs even though it had the worst ratings. Someone found out that a executive was giving money to the show out of his own pocket.

    I'm trying to find a reason why B&B haven't been fired yet?!

    Another example, Doctor Who's 22nd season was cancelled. Then it was brought back with McCoy. It was better than ever only to be cancelled permentanly soon after?!

  7. #22
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    Doctor Who was always in danger of cancellation throughout the final seasons. Colin Baker's stint started it - they made his Doctor too alien and inhuman to begin with, which is why he was the shortest-lived Doctor around (a shame actually, he could be quite good given a decent script to work with). McCoy was IMHO the best Doctor since Tom Baker. Remembrance of the Daleks was an almost perfect story, as was Ghost Light. Unfortunately, they spent way too much time on cameos by popular TV stars, daft and self-referential plotlines and many of the scripts weren't too hot. Even worse, the show got axed just as it was picking up big time - after Ace came in the stories got a tad darker and were better written. Battlefield and The Curse of Fenric were atmospheric and very well put-together.

    Even Silver Nemesis (the 25th Anniversary Special), whilst not great, was a fun romp and brought back the Cybermen (my favourite bad guys). The dialogue between McCoy as the Doctor and Sophie Aldred as Ace was top-notch:

    "Ace?"

    "Yes, Professor?"

    "You wouldn't by any chance have disobeyed my strict instructions and secretly prepared any more Nitro-9, would you?"

    "No, Professor. I'm a good girl and I always do what I'm told."

    "Excellent... [grin] Blow up that starship."

    Enterprise's problem seems to me to be that the scripts aren't particularly well-written. Given character interaction like that shown above, the effects don't need to be too hot, and the plot doesn't even need to be particularly creative to make a good show. (After all, as White Wolf games pointed out, the plot of one of the best films ever made was just a great big shark terrorizing a seaside community...)
    "That might have been the biggest mistake of my life..."

    "It is unlikely. I predict there is scope for even greater mistakes in the future given your obvious talent for them."

    Vila and Orac, Blake's Seven

  8. #23
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    Re: Re: Re: Oh, good grief...

    Originally posted by erhershman
    Why are ratings so poor?

    Because a large majority of Trek fans have standards of ultra-perfection and refuse to watch anything that isn't 100% dead-on. [...]they refuse to believe that Rick Berman and Brannon Braga will ever turn out anything good, even though Berman has done so before (with DS9.)

    Why did Nemesis do so badly?

    Because 1) it released a few days before LotR and 2) see explanation of poor ratings above; the same applies to the movie.

    Just thought I'd get that across.
    Well, it doesn't seem like Star Trek fans are who Paramount needs to 'get on board' for better ratings or box office, if by ST fans you mean the hardcore folks like us. We are a minority. They need to get the average (imaginative) American to watch, which is what happened with TNG. "We" are not going to save or kill ST, IMHO.

    Oh, and the overall quality of DS9 is a matter of opinion.
    I'M Captain Kirk!!!!

  9. #24
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    Originally posted by Phantom
    I didn't like Nem, and I'm not thrilled with Ent, though it has surprised me of late. Getting that out of the way I too think it needs to be saved, however the only way I see that as happening is to either;

    1) Put it on hiatus. I mean we have had Trek in one form or another for ten years now. It needs time to re invent itself.

    [...]

    More like 15 years, of weekly Star Trek episodes. Either a hiatus or some fresh writing blood is in order. I vote for the latter, since I'd hate to be without my ST fix!

    Star Trek has been re-invented twice, IMHO: for STII:TWOK, and for TNG. It needed another reinvention, which they apparently intended to do with ENT. I don't think they've succeeded - it doesn't feel especially new or different to me, although it gets close now and then.
    I'M Captain Kirk!!!!

  10. #25
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    Originally posted by erhershman
    Phantom, no offense, but sitting around waiting for a 100% perfect episode is like standing in the middle of a field during a lightning storm waiting for the lightning to hit you. You can't get it 100% dead on, so you have to content yourself with watching the lightning blast all around you. It's still amazing, but it never quite hits where you want.
    What I'm saying is that there will never be a PERFECT episode, so you and people like you can sit around waiting for that episode that will never come, or you can learn to like what you've got. Because NO episode, repeat NO episode of any Star Trek show, or any other show for that matter, has been so good that I would describe it as "perfect."

    And BTW, define "really stunning." You seem to know what you want from an ENT episode, so what is it?
    Well, if we're going to compare ENT or ST in general to other shows, and I think we should, there are plenty of shows that I'm sure any of us could list that we always or nearly always enjoy. For example, I am ALWAYS quite satisfied after an episode of West Wing, and ALWAYS quite entertained by Smallville.

    I don't think anyone expects "perfect", just consistently satisfying, a reliable way to spend one's time. I continue to watch ENT in the hopes that it will make it to that level for me. So far, it's been pretty mixed.
    I'M Captain Kirk!!!!

  11. #26
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    Originally posted by Kirok
    More like 15 years, of weekly Star Trek episodes. Either a hiatus or some fresh writing blood is in order. I vote for the latter, since I'd hate to be without my ST fix!

    Star Trek has been re-invented twice, IMHO: for STII:TWOK, and for TNG. It needed another reinvention, which they apparently intended to do with ENT. I don't think they've succeeded - it doesn't feel especially new or different to me, although it gets close now and then.
    Some fresh blood would be nice. As for being without a ST fix, hey, TNG and DS9 are on DVD--I'll never be without a ST fix.

    As for reinventing Trek, I think it can be argued that DS9 pretty convincingly took Trek somewhere else than either TOS or TNG did.

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