"Starships" Questions

[ImperialOne]

My point-of-view-only, of course, since I'm not Don.

I am not hurl;ing any bricks either, Snake, I enjoy your nitpicks.

Anyone can value the extra hit durability of the AA/BB/CC/DD/EE/ etc. However, it is the actual change of letters which call for various damage effects to occur (Going from F to E, E to D etc).

I think the spirirt of the Starships design is that the letters signify which is better or worse, and that the double letters don't change that. Hence, the value list would be (going from lowest to highest):

A
AA
B
BB
C
CC
D
DD
E
EE
F
FF

In your example, in choosing the worst, it would be the CC not the D.

[Publius]

I actually agree with Snake's argument, the CC is "better" than the D in a fight (durability). The reliability mod is not as high however (as I recall, I am at work and don;t have the book with me), which lends credence to ImperialOne's suggestion that a D is "better" than a CC (fucntionality). In the end, I guess it depends on what you are going for (functionality vs. durability) and how you want to justify it in your backstory

Examples:

• The system was cutting edge at the time but has not been replaced (delicate but higher functionality = D).
• The panel works when you smack it, taking a hit to the system just makes it work better (greater durability - at least the first time= CC).

[Sea Tyger]

Okay, I have a question on the application of the prototype edge flaw, that doesn't seem inherently clear as I thumb through the ships that use it.

The description on p. 27 states: "Take one value of an installed system and 'shift' that value up or down..."

Okay, does this mean that if I have the PB-32 Mod 3 warp drive (wf 6/7/8) with the Prototype (warp drive, speed +1) edge, does the PB-32's speed increase to wf 7/9/12? Or, does only one of the three ratings increase by one column (to, say 6/7/12)?

On the same note, does the reliability move along the A, AA, B... route, or does it move along the chart of the appropriate system (which may not follow the linear progression from A-F)?
----------------------------------
Also, Snake and Imperial One, there is no reliability rating "FF."

[ImperialOne]

Sea Tyger:
If the prototype is meant to be in your favour, I believe the column shift is meant to shift the entire set of values to the next favorable one in the table (i.e. for beam weapons, a favourable one shift makes Pen from 6/5/5/0/0 to 6/6/6/0/0).

Thanks about the FF, I don't have my book here at work with me. Hey, I was only using it as an example. I stand corrected.

Charles

[Snake_Plissken]

Also, Snake and Imperial One, there is no reliability rating "FF."

some of the Borg ships' systems do have a FF rating.

[Sea Tyger]

Originally posted by Snake_Plissken
some of the Borg ships' systems do have a FF rating.

You're right, but it may be a typo. Class 4R ops and life support systems are rating EE, and the reliability chart only goes up to F.

[Snake_Plissken]

You're right, but it may be a typo. Class 4R ops and life support systems are rating EE, and the reliability chart only goes up to F.

that was my first thought (typo) but then I thought that maybe it was some sort of exception for the Borg since they are so, well, kick-ass But if I had to bet I'd say 'typo'. OTOH a FF rating would be easy to conceive as you'd simply ignore the first damage box.

The reliability mod is not as high however (as I recall, I am at work and don;t have the book with me), which lends credence to ImperialOne's suggestion that a D is "better" than a CC (fucntionality)

and that is something that further confused me- you are correct; a system rated BB is more durable in combat than a system rated C but it is less reliable (a system rated BB has a +3 mod while a system rated C has a +4) ... and just to get even more confused if you look at table 1.6 (ops + ls costs) you realize that a system with a BB rating will cost the same as a system rated D, which is both superior in reliability and durability.

One thing I was wondering even before 'Starships' came out: when you have a wide difference in reliability between 2 "cousin" systems (impulse/warp; beam/missile) such as one being 'A' and the other 'E' instead of picking the worst of the two how about averaging them out? For instance if we take the example above (A and E) both systems could be given 'C's.

Lastly I know that the system is not meant to be really 'tight' and the point of all this is too clarify things a bit- in the end it doesn't make that much of a difference if your escort frigate has weapons'reliability set at D instead of CC when 3 Jem'Hadar ships are pounding on it

ah and for the record, which goes to show you, I have this rule whereas if I go over in space cost I can cram up to 5 'freebie' space points- so if I'm designing a size 8 warship (119 pts of space) and I my final tally is 123 then as long as I'm within 5 of 119 its fine. I find that useful when designing large ships that are supposed to have a lot of systems at the same time (ie a large klingon or romulan assault vessel of some kind which means lots of systems like weapons, strong shields, a cloak, transporters and shuttlebays)

[Snake_Plissken]

ah yes I forgot also:

I think the spirirt of the Starships design is that the letters signify which is better or worse, and that the double letters don't change that. Hence, the value list would be (going from lowest to highest):

I would think so too. And I personally would prefer in a way to keep things that way because with a straight logical progression you can compare the relative ratings easily, whereas if you go by 'effect' you'll get headaches in no time (ie :"why is C only a step above AA?" or "wait what's better again DD or E?")

[Lt Cmdr Matt]

Originally posted by Don Mappin
LOL! Dude, build your own! That's what's so great about RPGs!

Have to agree with Don here, I am working on a carrier now for Starfleet fighters. Size 8 I think or maybe 9 have not decided yet but should do the job effectively.

[Cmdr Powers]

Originally posted by Lt Cmdr Matt
Have to agree with Don here, I am working on a carrier now for Starfleet fighters. Size 8 I think or maybe 9 have not decided yet but should do the job effectively.

That's fine. The point is to create the 'feel' of what you're looking for and come up with the closest thing. Don just showed me that the Akira in the book is already what I wanted, by pointing out how the rules work for you.

By all means, show us your carrier, but I think I'll go ahead and stick with the one we already have that's already a canon part of the ST universe.

[Snake_Plissken]

you realize that a system with a BB rating will cost the same as a system rated D, which is both superior in reliability and durability.

I take that back partially; a D rating is actually equal to a BB rating in terms of durability- a BB rating has 1 damage box with penalty, one final "system screwed" box and a "freebie"; a D rating has 3 damage boxes with penalty and the final box, so it has one extra box (advantage) negated by the fact that it carries a penalty. Hence equal systems and the same cost. Although in the reliability dept D still wins (+6 over +3)

gee... I should have been an accountant

[Sea Tyger]

Originally posted by Snake_Plissken
gee... I should have been an accountant

The wonderful world of chartered accountancy.

[Don Mappin]

As many have noticed, the new double ratings (AA, BB, etc) are a little difficult to quantify as far as which is "best." That's intentional. You starship designers will have to determine what's better for your vessels.

A system with a double rating gets that additional hit for 'free' in essence, but can not remain in operation as long as a comparable system. It's a tradeoff of reliability versus durability as Snake has pointed out.

I prefer to think of a system with a double rating as older and hardened, able to take more punishment. However these systems lack finesse and flair versus their more modern counterparts. Those systems (single rating systems) can do more and have better overall ratings but when they fail, they fail hard. It adds a new, interesting twist to the system that I enjoy.

Oh, there are not officially any systems rated "FF" although that really isn't a big deal; as someone pointed out you would just mark off that first hit as free and treat as an "F" system from that point forward. Don't know what cost they used for that "FF" if it was done intentionally. (Is probably a typo.)

[Don Mappin]

Originally posted by Sea Tyger
The description on p. 27 states: "Take one value of an installed system and 'shift' that value up or down..."

Okay, does this mean that if I have the PB-32 Mod 3 warp drive (wf 6/7/8) with the Prototype (warp drive, speed +1) edge, does the PB-32's speed increase to wf 7/9/12? Or, does only one of the three ratings increase by one column (to, say 6/7/12)?

Prototype is the most complex piece of "Starships" and I'm not surprised that you might find confusing. You're pretty close in your understanding.

Essentially, you take your base system and you're shifting 'rows.' Up or down has no meaning; the result of the shift--making an item better or worse--is what we're interested in.

In your example the PB-32 Mod 3 WD with a Speed +1 shift would alter that engine's speed ratings to 6/7/12 and only its speed rating. In this particular example you're allowed to shift that PB-32 Mod 3 +2 (to 8/10/13) or -6 (1/2/4). Remember, those plusses and minuses are relative to you gaining or losing functionality. On some systems, depending on the column, three row shifts "up" the page could provide 1 bonus and 2 penalties.

If it improves a system its a positive shift. If its detrimental to the system its a negative shift.

On the same note, does the reliability move along the A, AA, B... route, or does it move along the chart of the appropriate system (which may not follow the linear progression from A-F)?

It moves along the chart.

[Don Mappin]

Originally posted by ImperialOne
Sea Tyger:
If the prototype is meant to be in your favour, I believe the column shift is meant to shift the entire set of values to the next favorable one in the table (i.e. for beam weapons, a favourable one shift makes Pen from 6/5/5/0/0 to 6/6/6/0/0).

This is incorrect as a Beam or Missile weapon can only have their Offensive Value shifted; not their Penetration. (An important distinction.)

For example, the Prototype (Beam +1 OV) to a Type VIII phaser would alter it thus: 5 Space, 9 OV, 5 Min Size for an additional cost of 2 Space (the cost of the Trait).

Okay, why do that? In this manner you've effectively got a Type IX phaser that can be mounted on a Size 5 vessel (Type IX phaser can only be mounted on a Size 6 or larger) for a total net cost of 7 space. Prototype lets you do very interesting alterations and essentially take any of the 250+ systems in "Starships" and build your own on the fly. (Previously you would have had to use Unique System for 5 Space.)