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Thread: The marine debate where did it come from

  1. #1
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    The marine debate where did it come from

    The marine debate where did it come from
    Starfleet Marines have not, can not and will not be ever considered canon, end of discussion. Then way does it always keep caming back up and where did they start in the first place?

    The original series made no mention of ground forces nor of marines but the Starfleet of Kirks time was heavily influenced by the US Navy (as well as Royal Navy) so it was easy for fans so predisposed toward that idea to see that the marines were just off stage in the shadows. Franz Josef was the first to put them into anything which resembled semi official status when there was mention in the original technical manual published in the mid 1970’s of star Fleet Marines. But Bjo Tremble’s Star Trek Concordance made no mention of any such organization (nor did she include any information from the tech manual ). For the most part fan fiction left them out of the picture as well wanting to deal with the continuing adventures of the original cast and not wanting to invent new settings and characters unless seen first in either the original or animated series.

    When FASA published there Role Playing game in the early 80’s Star Fleet Marines were considered a full part of Star Fleet and FASA long promised a full supplement on them as part of thee expanding Game line though non was ever published. But in the mean time Star Trek: The Next Generation came along and one of the character concepts put forth was for a Klingon Marine Officer serving in Starfleet. While the idea took some convincing of Roddenberry before it was approved he did lay down the law on one issue for the first and final time “Starfleet has NO Marines”. Shortly afterwards Worf became the Enterprise’s newest chief tactical officer and future chief of security. Roddenberry’s clear statement should have settled the matter once and for all, but it didn’t.

    Shortly afterward several new points of argument emerged. First it became obvious that Chief O’Brian had been involved in some sort of ground combat action on a planet named Setlick III and his rank was never quite right officer one episode enlisted the next. Later in DS9 his past actions would become more and more unclear by more passing references. Then in Star Trek V we see a hostage resuce situtation resolved with a crew of very military looking ground troops. The next was the appearance of one Colonel West in Star Trek VI seen addressing gathered Federation officials on a rescue mission for Kirk and later as part of a conspiracy to upset the peace talks. Colonel West, whose rank was clearly out of place for the normal naval inspired rank system used by Starfleet has never been adequately addressed by the current producers/writers or any other person in an official capacity. He remains 12 years after his appearance an “enigma wrapped in a mystery” or the ultimate Star Trek writers “OOPS!”

    Meanwhile a large international fan organization emerged called Starfleet which encourages fans to become active in there community and with other charities and causes. The organization of the club bases itself on the paramilitary organization of Starfleet i.e. chapters are named after fictional starships/starbases and there members are given ranks. As part of this organization is an affiliated group called The Starfleet Marine Corps which does the same functions as the parent organization and it too is organized loosely along paramilitary lines its chapters being named after fictional SFMC units and members being given ranks and such. The organization as a whole was closely allied to the growing Fan technical base which had grown out of the efforts of Franz Josef and others in detailing the particulars of the Star trek universe such as deck plans and six volumes described as the “Federation Reference series”. This niche of the fan base is usually very supportive of Marines as there guiding light Franz Josef had created them as part of the original Trek universe.

    Then Deep Space Nine came which more or less invented the new concept of Starfleet Ground Forces serving the marine function in Star Trek. The new Ground force would serve as a recurring plot device in several episodes and even had a few guest star level appearances. In the end it was clear some ground force did exist in the canon trek universe even if that force was not named marines. At the same moment a new RPG was released by Last Unicorn Games (LUG) well it did not have marines it did have Rapid Response Teams which were highly marine like in there purpose and function even though they were apart of Security. Though the game line ended production before a new Security and Dominion War Sourcebook could be produced many of the concepts which were to be apart of those books found there way to the internet.

    The thriving internet allowed for the first time the marine/ground force supporters to find there own voice free from canon concern and Paramount Studio directives. Fan fiction based on ground combat, especially from the Dominion Wa,r became fairly popular and common as did fan created websites for the RPG with game material geared toward those who wished to run more military inspired Trek games. At the same time the SFMC organization site offers detailed military style manuals for a fictional Starfleet Marine force which provide excellent resource material. And finally various discussion boards have countless threads dedicated to the subject and bring together temperaments best not brought together on the subject.

    So what can we say is the current status of Marines/Ground Forces in the trek Universe well they are not going to go away that is for sure. If a direct statement from Gene Roddenberry could not put the issue to rest it is doubtless fan bickering and official dickering will. There will always be those who support Marines/Ground Forces because it fits with there primarily military based view of Star Trek even though they fully support Gene Roddenberry’s basic vision.
    Last edited by Eric R.; 03-27-2003 at 08:01 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: The marine debate where did it come from

    Who is Franz Josef?
    Steven "redwood973" Wood

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    He did a bunch of teh semi-official fan material in the '70s.

    If there's any real screen material for a ground forces before DS9, it's the reference to 'Colonel West' in Trek VI.
    "War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

    John Stuart Mill

  4. #4
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    I too have never been able to, or seen an explanation about Col. West. Though I have always considered the Security Force on board a ship to be "Ship's Troops"- I suppose a Marine by any other name. Shrug.

    BTW weren't the RRTs mentioned in DS9..? I seem to remember them being mentioned.

  5. #5
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    Franz Joseph was the technical artist who wrote the original Star Trek Technical Manual (the one laid out like a military file) from Ballantyne. Star Fleet Battles and Prime Directive are derived from his work, as are the three nacelle dreadnought and single nacelle destroyer and scout ship classes.

    Originally posted by qerlin
    He did a bunch of teh semi-official fan material in the '70s.
    Actually at the time he wrote his book, it was 100% canon, commissioned and approved by Paramount. Given that it was the only official material available, nearly all early fan stuff was based on it. It was only in the late-seventies that he and Gene began to disagree (over license ownership if I remember correctly). It seems to have become quite petty, coming to a head when the movies arrived, and among other things, Gene announced that starships would only have 2 or 4 warp nacelles. There's a fascinating (if one-sided) article at www.trekplace.com
    Jon

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    Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice, and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do."
    THE DOCTOR, "Survival" (Doctor Who)

  6. #6
    All right, you made me leave the quiet corner of lurking...

    IIRC never was there mention, in DS9, of Star Fleet Ground Forces. Every time someone talked about Ground Forces and the Federation personal, it was always Federation Ground Forces, not Star Fleet's. So if you take the once used comment by Kirk in TOS about Star Fleet being a "unified military" and throw it out, as with many other elements from that series, such as phasers being set for "proximity detonation" (anybody?), you end up with a reasonable explanation. The United Federation of Planets does indeed have some form of non-ship based military representation, this also explains Col. West's existence.

    Now I'm not trying to start a war over this, but there would need to be some type of planet based units. Security works fine for many scenarios, but not all. As far as the control of orbit and just phasering the ground units from space, nobody ever said the units were large, all in one place, or perfect. It is hard to scan for intentions from orbit after all.

    On with RRT, Star Fleet? Yes. Ground Forces? Not really, more of a specialized search and __________ type group. I cannot think of the name of the episode, but Picard, Crusher, and Worf are sent behind Cardassian lines to extract/recon/gather info or what not as a ground based team. The RRT in my view are the 24th century version of a SEAL, Delta Force, SWAT, and EMS Rescue type unit (no offense to not US folks here, just can't think of what your special units are called). Call them when you cannot send a full starship for what ever reason, their a small, highly trained, motivated, and equipped group of specialists that can be used in both times of war and peace, and can also be incorporated into the whole of a ships crew without the issue of not knowing what is going on.

    So I would like to apologize for any perceived flames or what not, and I'm open to debate on this subject. I'm not saying "This is how it is" just this is how it might be, we live in the 21st century, not the 24th, we have no idea what is really going on...until we go out and by all the rights to Trek... (man I would love to have a piece of that pie).
    Phoenix...

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    but maybe we should just remove all the safety lables and let nature take it's course"

    "A Place For Everything & Nothing In It's Place"

  7. #7
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    Actually, the rank of "colonel" could have been an honorarium of sorts. West wore the rank insignia of admiral, IIRC, and it could simply be that he, as the head of whatever Starfleet called its ground forces, was addressed as colonel as a nickname that fit his position.
    Davy Jones

    "Frightened? My dear, you are looking at a man who has laughed in the face of death, sneered at doom, and chuckled at catastrophe! I was petrified."
    -- The Wizard of Oz

  8. #8
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    I doubt the use of a nickname good or bad in an offical breifing will ever be tolerated no matter what the circumstances.

  9. #9
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    Where does it come from ?

    Probably from people sitting around dicussing Star Trek either watching a show/movie or most likely playing one of the various games. One might pose the question, "Does star trek have an army?" Another might say "I suppose, they have to protect the planets somehow." "They never mention them." They never say there isn't"

    Trek is very vague and ambiguios on alot of issues, Marines, economy, how it works, It for the indiviual fan to fill in their own gaps and other fans to just except other's ideas of Trek.
    Some define peace as the absense of war. I rather define it as the prevailance of liberty

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    Interesting to note that in the original theatrical release of Undiscovered Country, the Colonel West scene was removed.

    Not that that proves anything one way or another...but it's interesting.

    My take on it is that canonically, there are no Starfleet Marines. Fullstop.

    Non-canonically, I think it's logical to assume there are Starfleet special forces teams (call them RRTs, if you want), and I'd say each member world would furnish its own ground troops - if for no other reason than for peace-keeping missions, etc.

    Of course, in your game world, you can have Starfleet Cotton-Candy Sellers if you want!
    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for others.

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